Guide to setup a Quarantine Tank (QT).

[ScienceRulez]

What size will work for a QT tank? While I realize something is better than nothing, what would be an "ideal" size? As it currently stands, I am getting a 10 gallon tank ready, but a friend has a 20 gallon high she is willing to donate. Since its footprint is almost the same as a 10, I could use it if it would be better. There won't be a skimmer, chiller, etc, but there will be a small heater, light, and HOB type filter.

To start it, I was going to use fresh mixed salt water, and get some live rock rubble from the LFS. From reading this thread, I also want to put a piece of PVC pipe so the fish can hide if it wants to. I want to get the tank set up within the next couple weeks to allow for cycling (4-6 weeks), and then slowly introduce one small fish at a time (6-9 weeks) which brings me to the 12 weeks I need for the main tank to recover from the brooklynella.

So should it be a 10 or 20 high, gallon?

 

[Spar]

bnumair,
I have been reading this thread from the begining and I have a couple of questions:

1.- after the first two weeks of prazipro, I belive you suggest 50% WC and run carbon. how you run carbon in the QT? in a reactor or how? how you know when to stop carbon?

2.-Why to use cupramine for treating ich, if hyposalinity seems to be easier and is safe for all fish? is it less effective?

3.- before you explained that if you put the ceramic rings poblated with bacteria from the DT into the QT and you add some stability, you have an instantly cycled QT and no need to wait.
can you do the same thing if you set a new DT? just add the ceramic media with bacteria, add stability and you would be able to add fish and sps the first day and not wait for a cycle???

thanks

1-the post-prazipro water change isn't really necessary, but is recommended. and is good for the fish regardless to get them fresh water that has been medicated for some time. the easiest way to run carbon is through a reactor, but you could also use a hang-on-back (HOB) filter that has an insert available to put carbon. just running carbon for a 3 days or so will be plenty. really wouldn't hurt to run carbon at all times either, just make sure you are using the recommended amount of carbon for your water volume, or a little less.

2-hyposalinity is considered the least effective of the primary Ich treatments for a couple reasons, namely (1) it is difficult for novices to maintain the required salinity (1.008-1.009'ish) without variation, which can be helped by an auto-top off system that many novices will pass on, (2) alkalinity can very quickly crash causing health issues with the fish, which can be helped by monitoring alkalinity and doing soda ash / baking soda as necessary, and (3) most importantly is that there are hyposalinity tolerant strains of Ich that won't be killed, and noone is sure how common these are, making hyposalinity treatment iff'y at best at being successful even if your other procedures are spot-on. Copper is highly effective, although risky to fish health, especially with certain fish such as Angels. Tank Transfer Method (TTM) is the most effective and easiest to administer.

3-"same day" smells of disaster in any situation. yes, you can add seeded biomatter to your DT and dose additional stability (or other bacteria-in-a-bottle solutions), but you really should wait a few days to make sure it is working; meaning no ammonia reading and you start seeing a rise in nitrates. then slowly add fish. keep in mind that if you add seeded biomatter from someone elses tank that has parasites, then you are just bringing them over with the seeded material.

 

[Spar]

What size will work for a QT tank? While I realize something is better than nothing, what would be an "ideal" size? As it currently stands, I am getting a 10 gallon tank ready, but a friend has a 20 gallon high she is willing to donate. Since its footprint is almost the same as a 10, I could use it if it would be better. There won't be a skimmer, chiller, etc, but there will be a small heater, light, and HOB type filter.

To start it, I was going to use fresh mixed salt water, and get some live rock rubble from the LFS. From reading this thread, I also want to put a piece of PVC pipe so the fish can hide if it wants to. I want to get the tank set up within the next couple weeks to allow for cycling (4-6 weeks), and then slowly introduce one small fish at a time (6-9 weeks) which brings me to the 12 weeks I need for the main tank to recover from the brooklynella.

So should it be a 10 or 20 high, gallon?

what matters the most regarding size, is the size and quantity of fish. especially in a small space, you don't want to cram the fish in there or they will fight and/or die from stress. in a 10g tank, having 1-3 fish may be fine (depending on size).

for my QT's I have on-hand a pair of 10g's, pair of 20g's and a pair of 30g's to size accordingly for what my new livestock is.

the equipment you mentioned above will be just fine for a QT. consider a fan over the water to help control temperature if you need (in lieu of a chiller). and add some PVC attachments of various sizes for the fish to hide in. no substrate or even rubble is necessary; the bacteria will form on the side of glass, PVC parts, and filter, etc. have some ammonia detox on hand to help with any ammonia build-up, and otherwise just keep up water changes to provide fresh water and to suck up waste.

 

[ScienceRulez]

what matters the most regarding size, is the size and quantity of fish. especially in a small space, you don't want to cram the fish in there or they will fight and/or die from stress. in a 10g tank, having 1-3 fish may be fine (depending on size).

for my QT's I have on-hand a pair of 10g's, pair of 20g's and a pair of 30g's to size accordingly for what my new livestock is.

<snip>

I only plan on introducing one, maybe two (depending on species) fish at a time into the QT/display tank.

Thank you for the help. You guys have been terrific through this with your help.
:fish1:

 

[sensei]

1-the post-prazipro water change isn't really necessary, but is recommended. and is good for the fish regardless to get them fresh water that has been medicated for some time. the easiest way to run carbon is through a reactor, but you could also use a hang-on-back (HOB) filter that has an insert available to put carbon. just running carbon for a 3 days or so will be plenty. really wouldn't hurt to run carbon at all times either, just make sure you are using the recommended amount of carbon for your water volume, or a little less.

2-hyposalinity is considered the least effective of the primary Ich treatments for a couple reasons, namely (1) it is difficult for novices to maintain the required salinity (1.008-1.009'ish) without variation, which can be helped by an auto-top off system that many novices will pass on, (2) alkalinity can very quickly crash causing health issues with the fish, which can be helped by monitoring alkalinity and doing soda ash / baking soda as necessary, and (3) most importantly is that there are hyposalinity tolerant strains of Ich that won't be killed, and noone is sure how common these are, making hyposalinity treatment iff'y at best at being successful even if your other procedures are spot-on. Copper is highly effective, although risky to fish health, especially with certain fish such as Angels. Tank Transfer Method (TTM) is the most effective and easiest to administer.

3-"same day" smells of disaster in any situation. yes, you can add seeded biomatter to your DT and dose additional stability (or other bacteria-in-a-bottle solutions), but you really should wait a few days to make sure it is working; meaning no ammonia reading and you start seeing a rise in nitrates. then slowly add fish. keep in mind that if you add seeded biomatter from someone elses tank that has parasites, then you are just bringing them over with the seeded material.

Thanks for your answer!
I have more questions:

1.-How are you measuring salinity in your tank?
I ask because I have an apex controller and a red sea refractometer; I calibrated the apex probe with the calibration solution and I also calibrate the refractometer with 0 alkalinity RO water every time I read and I get very different readings.
I don´t know which is correct. let me know how can I be sure of my actual salinity

2.- I read a post of the Tank Transfer Method, but I do not quite understand of how to do it. Any detailed link of how to do it ??

3.- I have 2 tanks, in one I saw signs of ich in a hypo tang, the other tanks is fine. How can I be sure that the one that looks clean does not have any parasites??
I ask because I am setting a QT now , but I never quarantined before .

Thanks again

 

[sensei]

1-the post-prazipro water change isn't really necessary, but is recommended. and is good for the fish regardless to get them fresh water that has been medicated for some time. the easiest way to run carbon is through a reactor, but you could also use a hang-on-back (HOB) filter that has an insert available to put carbon. just running carbon for a 3 days or so will be plenty. really wouldn't hurt to run carbon at all times either, just make sure you are using the recommended amount of carbon for your water volume, or a little less.

Spar,
I am setting an 85gal QT, how do I know how much carbon I need to run??

 

[Dr. Reef]

Spar,
I am setting an 85gal QT, how do I know how much carbon I need to run??

I use BRS (bulk reef supply) website. There you will find a calculator. Plug in numbers regarding your tank and it will give u all calculations doses etc.

 

[Spar]

Thanks for your answer!
I have more questions:

1.-How are you measuring salinity in your tank?
I ask because I have an apex controller and a red sea refractometer; I calibrated the apex probe with the calibration solution and I also calibrate the refractometer with 0 alkalinity RO water every time I read and I get very different readings.
I don´t know which is correct. let me know how can I be sure of my actual salinity

2.- I read a post of the Tank Transfer Method, but I do not quite understand of how to do it. Any detailed link of how to do it ??

3.- I have 2 tanks, in one I saw signs of ich in a hypo tang, the other tanks is fine. How can I be sure that the one that looks clean does not have any parasites??
I ask because I am setting a QT now , but I never quarantined before .

Thanks again

1-only measure salinity with a 35ppt solution calibrated refractometer. my understanding of the Apex controller types of salinity probes is that they are better for measuring consistency than they are actual salinity. I have an Apex controller and have chosen not to use this. you can get the 35ppt solution at most petstores or any online store. calibrating using RO/DI water will skew your actual salinity by around 2ppt; you need to calibrate using something close to what the salinity will be that you are measuring.

2-best and shortest post is here explaining what TTM is and how to do it; let us know if you have any follow up questions to it though: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428

3-if you haven't treated via TTM, copper or hypo in the past, and each tank has been in contact with fish, you are safest to assume that each has Ich in it, and treat accordingly. meaning you would leave those tanks fallow for the 12 weeks period, while treating the fish and housing them separately during that period. although this 12 weeks will suck, it will relieve headaches in the future.

4-re: carbon - as mentioned above, use the Bulk Reef Supply (BRS) calculator and either use that amount or less than what they are recommending. i personally don't use carbon on any of my tanks, but most people seem to.

 

[sensei]

1-only measure salinity with a 35ppt solution calibrated refractometer. my understanding of the Apex controller types of salinity probes is that they are better for measuring consistency than they are actual salinity. I have an Apex controller and have chosen not to use this. you can get the 35ppt solution at most petstores or any online store. calibrating using RO/DI water will skew your actual salinity by around 2ppt; you need to calibrate using something close to what the salinity will be that you are measuring.

2-best and shortest post is here explaining what TTM is and how to do it; let us know if you have any follow up questions to it though: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428

3-if you haven't treated via TTM, copper or hypo in the past, and each tank has been in contact with fish, you are safest to assume that each has Ich in it, and treat accordingly. meaning you would leave those tanks fallow for the 12 weeks period, while treating the fish and housing them separately during that period. although this 12 weeks will suck, it will relieve headaches in the future.

4-re: carbon - as mentioned above, use the Bulk Reef Supply (BRS) calculator and either use that amount or less than what they are recommending. i personally don't use carbon on any of my tanks, but most people seem to.

Thanks a lot.
I will get the 35ppt calibration sol for calibrating the refractometer.

I read the thead for the TTM and it is understood now ( excelent info); however it seems a little difficult if you are to quarentine more than several fish at the same time?
I plan to buy 5 - 7 fish at the same time and I am setting up an 85 gal QT, so it would be difficult to clean and sterilize another of the same size for the next tranffer. I dont know if the TTM is only practical for small QT were you can quarentine one or two fish at the time because of the QT size?

please tell me what you think

 

[Spar]

Thanks a lot.
I will get the 35ppt calibration sol for calibrating the refractometer.

I read the thead for the TTM and it is understood now ( excelent info); however it seems a little difficult if you are to quarentine more than several fish at the same time?
I plan to buy 5 - 7 fish at the same time and I am setting up an 85 gal QT, so it would be difficult to clean and sterilize another of the same size for the next tranffer. I dont know if the TTM is only practical for small QT were you can quarentine one or two fish at the time because of the QT size?

please tell me what you think

TTM is much easier with a smaller number of fish, but it is possible to do more at a time, just takes more muscle for the transfers... and more $ for the additional tank and equipment of course.

I TTM'ed 6 tangs at once (~3" each) in a pair of 30g tanks. Can't guarantee that everyone will have success in such a risky environment though. Perhaps have 2 separate TTM operations going at once? 3 fish in each... split up by temperament... otherwise, you may be better off treating with copper for 4 weeks in a single larger QT (40g breeder or 55g or so).

 

[sensei]

TTM is much easier with a smaller number of fish, but it is possible to do more at a time, just takes more muscle for the transfers... and more $ for the additional tank and equipment of course.

I TTM'ed 6 tangs at once (~3" each) in a pair of 30g tanks. Can't guarantee that everyone will have success in such a risky environment though. Perhaps have 2 separate TTM operations going at once? 3 fish in each... split up by temperament... otherwise, you may be better off treating with copper for 4 weeks in a single larger QT (40g breeder or 55g or so).

a couple o more questions:
1.-do you TTM all fish even if they do not show signs of ich? or only if they are tangs, or if they show signs of ich in the observation time??

2.- in the TTM you DO NOT need any bacteria or filter media, like the ceramic rings poblated with bacteria??

I am thinking of the following protocol:
1.-quarentine with prazipro for 2 week, then 50% WC and run carbon for 3 days
2.- observe for the next 4 weeks if no signs of ich then transffer to DT
3.-if there are signs of ich, then TTM or dose copper
4.- if the new fish includes tangs, then always do TTM or treat with copper as safety measure
p.d. then it would make sense NOT to buy tangs together with other fish, since tangs would always require TTM or copper treatment and puting them togetehr with other fish would mean treating all of them for ich.

please let me know what you think

Thanks again

 

[Spar]

a couple o more questions:
1.-do you TTM all fish even if they do not show signs of ich? or only if they are tangs, or if they show signs of ich in the observation time??

2.- in the TTM you DO NOT need any bacteria or filter media, like the ceramic rings poblated with bacteria??

I am thinking of the following protocol:
1.-quarentine with prazipro for 2 week, then 50% WC and run carbon for 3 days
2.- observe for the next 4 weeks if no signs of ich then transffer to DT
3.-if there are signs of ich, then TTM or dose copper
4.- if the new fish includes tangs, then always do TTM or treat with copper as safety measure
p.d. then it would make sense NOT to buy tangs together with other fish, since tangs would always require TTM or copper treatment and puting them togetehr with other fish would mean treating all of them for ich.

please let me know what you think

Thanks again

I personally treat ALL fish for Ich regardless of showing signs or not. You will eventually guess wrong otherwise, making all your prior QT/treatment efforts somewhat a waste of time.

Correct, you don't need to bother with bacteria when administering TTM. Just have an ammonia test kit on hand and some ammonia detox that you can dose at the end of second or beginning of the third day to eliminate any small build up of ammonia, but shouldn't be a problem either way.

Your protocol appears OK other than the chances of guessing wrong. But, what you plan to do is more than 99% of people do and will help keep your fish healthy! Honestly though, you already going through the efforts of QT'ing for 4 weeks, so why not just TTM them for the first 12 days of each 4 week period.

 

[sensei]

I personally treat ALL fish for Ich regardless of showing signs or not. You will eventually guess wrong otherwise, making all your prior QT/treatment efforts somewhat a waste of time.

Correct, you don't need to bother with bacteria when administering TTM. Just have an ammonia test kit on hand and some ammonia detox that you can dose at the end of second or beginning of the third day to eliminate any small build up of ammonia, but shouldn't be a problem either way.

Your protocol appears OK other than the chances of guessing wrong. But, what you plan to do is more than 99% of people do and will help keep your fish healthy! Honestly though, you already going through the efforts of QT'ing for 4 weeks, so why not just TTM them for the first 12 days of each 4 week period.

Spar,
Yes, it makes more sense to treat every fish for ich, to be 100% sure.

I am sorry to ask so many questions.
1.- Can I know if you use fleshly prepared water for the TTM?? do you dose stability in it? or it is not necesarry becuase the fish will only stay 3 days in that water? I am a little confused, I thought that fish needed to bacteria to live and in the TTM there is no need of bacteria?
2.- since you do the TTM, I guess you have the Quarentine tanks empty and only run them when you buy fish?
3.- after you do the TTM you still keep the fish for 4 weeks for observation?
4.-do you dose prazi pro after the TTM or before?

I would apreciate if you let me how you do it?

 

[Spar]

Spar,
Yes, it makes more sense to treat every fish for ich, to be 100% sure.

I am sorry to ask so many questions.
1.- Can I know if you use fleshly prepared water for the TTM?? do you dose stability in it? or it is not necesarry becuase the fish will only stay 3 days in that water? I am a little confused, I thought that fish needed to bacteria to live and in the TTM there is no need of bacteria?
2.- since you do the TTM, I guess you have the Quarentine tanks empty and only run them when you buy fish?
3.- after you do the TTM you still keep the fish for 4 weeks for observation?
4.-do you dose prazi pro after the TTM or before?

I would apreciate if you let me how you do it?

1-i personally use DT water for TTM, but I know that my DT is disease free. it is the general consensus that freshly prepared saltwater is the best way to go for TTM. since the fish are only in that water for 3 days or less, there is no need to worry much about ammonia build-up, which is the only reason bacteria is necessary in a tank. many people, including me, dose some ammonia detox the beginning of the 3rd day (or end of the 2nd day) just in case... does no harm, so may as well do it (cheap anyway).

2-correct, my tanks are stored dry and await the next TTM. 2 of each 10g, 20g and 30g.... my wife loves me

3-it is preferred you keep them an additional 4 weeks for observation, yes. i personally do 4 weeks total, including the 12 days of TTM, but that is me accepting the risk related to rushing things. you will need to make your own call on that. i did have TTM fail once when I TTM'ed 6 tang's together, and was able to notice that it failed within the 2 following weeks, so I redid TTM again and QT'ed them an additional 4 weeks after that to make sure the 2nd attempt worked.

4-i do Prazi after TTM. if you do 3-day transfers with TTM, you can couple TTM with Prazi by dosing it after the first and third transfer.

 

[sensei]

Spar,

thanks for sharing your knowledge.

More questions:
1.-do you use a power head for the TTM??
snorvich in his post says that powerheads may be used but can be dificult to dry completely, thus I am wondering if you use one or just an air tube??
2.- I guess you do not use airstones since it should be discarted after each transffer?
3.- for the additional 4 weeks after TTM, do you use the same 30g tanks you have?
I ask because in these 4 weeks I guess a small tank would be more complecated to manage because of amonia build-up

thanks again

 

[sensei]

Spar,

1.-I forgot to ask if you keep the tanks for the TTM in the same room??
snorvich says that there may be aerosol contamination with the DT, and I wonder if it also aplys to the tanks for the TTM?

2.- do you use any bleach to clean tanks? or just water and make sure there are completely dry before next transffer?

regards

 

[Spar]

I only use airtube and airstone. That point about powerheads is accurate. I throw them out after a single use.

I tend to use the same tank for the QT observation period as well. If i use a 10g for TTM then I usually upgrade to a 20g for the observation period though.

Ammonia is pretty easy to combat really. Between water changes, routine siphoning, ammonia detox, and bacteria additive you can keep it in check quite simply for a long period of time.

Best to keep the tanks in a separate room. I keep them nearby but assume the risk.

I don't personally use disinfectant like bleach. I merely rinse with tap water and let dry. It is recommended to use bleach though.

 

[sensei]

I only use airtube and airstone. That point about powerheads is accurate. I throw them out after a single use.

I tend to use the same tank for the QT observation period as well. If i use a 10g for TTM then I usually upgrade to a 20g for the observation period though.

Ammonia is pretty easy to combat really. Between water changes, routine siphoning, ammonia detox, and bacteria additive you can keep it in check quite simply for a long period of time.

Best to keep the tanks in a separate room. I keep them nearby but assume the risk.

I don't personally use disinfectant like bleach. I merely rinse with tap water and let dry. It is recommended to use bleach though.

Thanks Spar,
what kind of air stones do you use?
since they are discarted in every tank transffer, I guess you get cheap ones?
it would help if you provide me with a link of the ones you use.
one air stone is enough when you use the 30G tanks ( I guess they are little ones)?

2.- for the observation period of 4 weeks, you only do water changes and dose products like prime and stability?
do you keep checking amonia levels, or how do you keep track?
do you test amonia or use an amonia strip like this one http://www.amazon.com/Seachem-67100...e=UTF8&qid=1438957418&sr=1-4&keywords=ammonia ??

 

[sensei]

Spar,
any comments on the questions I made above?

thanks

 

[Spar]

Thanks Spar,
what kind of air stones do you use?
since they are discarted in every tank transffer, I guess you get cheap ones?
it would help if you provide me with a link of the ones you use.
one air stone is enough when you use the 30G tanks ( I guess they are little ones)?

2.- for the observation period of 4 weeks, you only do water changes and dose products like prime and stability?
do you keep checking amonia levels, or how do you keep track?
do you test amonia or use an amonia strip like this one http://www.amazon.com/Seachem-67100...e=UTF8&qid=1438957418&sr=1-4&keywords=ammonia ??

odd, I fully recall responding to this... even posting a link... maybe i forgot to his submit!

1-any airstone will work, the only thing they do is break the surface which allows oxygen exchange. but, in my experience the heavier they are the less frustrating they are, as they have a tendency to want to float once air pushes through them. i use a variety of them, generally buying in bulk from Amazon ex:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009PJGDEO?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00

I used 2 airstones when i TTM/QT'ed with a 30g. not sure 2 were necessary, but I had a dual-output airpump anyway, so used it.

2-I actually put in a seeded sponge filter that has been sitting in my DT collecting bacteria for 2-4 weeks prior to use. this provides an instant cycle for the QT. but if you can't use DT water (not safe water), then I would have just relied on water changes and stability and prime, as you stated. I watch ammonia by using the ammonia alert badge you referred to and also checking with an API testkit every couple days until my confidence boosts that no issues are creeping up.
The sponge filters I am referring to:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=28052
^I do the Large ones personally regardless of tank size to maximize the surface area for bacteria.