Has anyone used Cupramine on a mandarin successfully?

[jeffbrig]

I'm battling an ich outbreak, moved all of my fish into a 55g QT. I've always run an ich free tank, and treated all new fish with hyposalinity, but I stupidly carried ich into the display. After 3 weeks of hyposalinity, it's still recurring on my tangs, so maybe I've discovered one of those rumored hypo-resistant strains.

At this point, I'm ready to switch to Cupramine in hopes of killing off the ich, but one of my fish is a target mandarin. (I realize mandarins are somewhat ich resistant, but he can't go back in the display unless we're positive he's not carrying anything. To do that, we need to treat him.) We've kept him well fed in QT by target feeding with a turkey baster, but I'm concerned about what affects Cupramine might have on him.

The conventional wisdom seems to be that copper is a no-no with mandarins, due to problems it causes with excessive sliming. I found an old post by Steven Pro indicating that Cupramine is allegedly mandarin-safe, but I can't find any evidence that anyone has used it and confirmed that. I also have an email out to Seachem asking this same question.

So, has anyone used Cupramine on a mandarin successfully?

 

[TerryB]

I do wonder why hypo didn't work for you. How long did you treat with hypo? What was the salinity? Did you measure it daily with a refractometer? What was the water temp? Did you leave the display tank fishless for at least six weeks? Did you check the pH daily?

I have personally used Cupramine with mandarins and other copper sensitive fish with success. I checked the copper level twice a day, treated for three weeks and used a dose of .4ppm. It is important to add only the half dose on the first day and then the other half on the second day as per the instructions. After that you must test the level twice a day and add more as needed. Treat only in a bare bottom Qtank without rock. I still prefer hyposalinity over copper so I rarely use it anymore.

Terry B

 

[jeffbrig]

Thanks for the info Terry.

After discovering problems with slope error in my old refractometer, I use a Pinpoint salinity monitor, and even checked the calibration twice since the fish went into hypo - once at the start, again after the ich wouldn't subside. I maintain salinity between 1.009 and 1.0010, generally staying closer to 1.009. That works out to 21.5 - 23.5 mS on the meter. I pulled out my error-riddled refractomter, and it read 1.008 for the salinity. In previous successful attempts with hyposalinity, I used this refractomter to dial in salinit at 1.009 - I'm below that level currently.

The fish have not gone back into the display, since they have yet to shake the parasite. My fish QT is a 55g, no substrate, with a few pieces of PVC, and a couple of pieces of fake rubber coral. Fish include an achilles tang, PBT, YT, anthia, flame hawk, mandarin, and a pair of clowns. They've been in hypo for over three weeks (almost 4), yet continue to show signs of new ich eruptions. I'd say we've been through at least three fresh cycles of outbreaks, so I'm convinced it's reproducing in the QT. The main tank has been fallow for about a month, and will remain fallow for another month before the fish are reintroduced.

I have plenty of experience treating ich with hyposalinity, so it's strange to me that I haven't been able to beat this strain. For almost two years I've used hypo to QT every fish I've purchased. Several showed signs of ich at the start of QT, but it always disappeared quickly under hypo. Unfortunately, I don't have a setup that allows me to QT acropora (yet), and I believe I managed to transport ich into the tank on the base of a colony.

I started raising the salinity last night, to avoid any long term kidney issues from too much time in hypo, and we're going down the Cupramine path. I'm going to raise the .002 each day, then start Cupramine over the weekend when we can better monitor the tank. My wife came across this article yesterday, which also mentions using Cupramine on a mandarin successfully.

http://www.marineaquariumadvice.com/synchiropus_splendidus_series_4.html

 

[TerryB]

Wow, that author is a really smart guy. I wondwer if I have ever met him?

BTW, every time I hear someone associate hyposalinity with kidney damage I get a good chuckle. I would like to see the evidence to support that idea.

Terry B

 

[jeffbrig]

Now that's too funny, Terry. I had no idea that was your article/site. Small world...

I haven't seen any hard evidence on the kidney damage either, but I've heard plenty of whispers about it. At two separate times, I've seen both of my acanthurus tangs develop a weird abdominal swelling after extended time in hyposalinity. The swelling prevented them from inflating their swim baldders and they were practically lying on the bottom using their pectoral fins to stay upright. Looking at fish anatomy, there are only a couple of organs that appear to be in the right location to cause this - kidneys and gonads. In both cases, the swelling went down and swim bladder function returned once we raised the salinity a bit.

From that observation, the notion that kidneys don't flush well in hyposalinity and could allow toxins to build up, possibly causing damage, seems like a reasonable possibility. Keep in mind, when I saw that I was using a refractometer that I since found has a bad slope error, so salinity was below 1.009.

 

[andrewsmart]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9869127#post9869127 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jeffbrig
Now that's too funny, Terry. I had no idea that was your article/site. Small world...

I haven't seen any hard evidence on the kidney damage either, but I've heard plenty of whispers about it. At two separate times, I've seen both of my acanthurus tangs develop a weird abdominal swelling after extended time in hyposalinity. The swelling prevented them from inflating their swim baldders and they were practically lying on the bottom using their pectoral fins to stay upright. Looking at fish anatomy, there are only a couple of organs that appear to be in the right location to cause this - kidneys and gonads. In both cases, the swelling went down and swim bladder function returned once we raised the salinity a bit.

From that observation, the notion that kidneys don't flush well in hyposalinity and could allow toxins to build up, possibly causing damage, seems like a reasonable possibility. Keep in mind, when I saw that I was using a refractometer that I since found has a bad slope error, so salinity was below 1.009.

if salinity was below 1.09 this would lead to complete reversal of how the fish would osmoregulate.

i would imagine this would really affect their swim bladders.

 

[TerryB]

I guess I should clarify a bit. Although some species do have the ablility to osmoregulate when the water is a lower salinity than the internal fluids, that doesn't necessarily mean that the majority of reef fish can handle a salinity below 12ppt. I was talking about the usual range of salinity that is used for hyposalinity of say 13-15ppt.

BTW, the kidneys are not responsible for handling the majority of the excess salt (marine species) in osmoregulation. The chloride cells in the gills handle that. The primary responsibility of the kidneys in maintaining osmotic balance is controlling the balance between magnesium and calcium ions, not in controlling salt levels.

It is also noteworthy that several species of marine fish have improved growth rates in hyposaline water. Hardly sounds like kidney damage to me.

Terry B

 

[andrewsmart]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9869360#post9869360 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TerryB
I guess I should clarify a bit. Although some species do have the ablility to osmoregulate when the water is a lower salinity than the internal fluids, that doesn't necessarily mean that the majority of reef fish can handle a salinity below 12ppt. I was talking about the usual range of salinity that is used for hyposalinity of say 13-15ppt.

BTW, the kidneys are not responsible for handling the majority of the excess salt (marine species) in osmoregulation. The chloride cells in the gills handle that. The primary responsibility of the kidneys in maintaining osmotic balance is controlling the balance between magnesium and calcium ions, not in controlling salt levels.

It is also noteworthy that several species of marine fish have improved growth rates in hyposaline water. Hardly sounds like kidney damage to me.

Terry B

so what happens to those species which cannot osmoregulate.

i assume they die but what symptoms do you see.

 

[TerryB]

marine teleost or boney reef fish all perform osmoregulation. Some species can withstand salinities as low as 7ppt. Can't say they all can though. That is why it is best to keep the salinity at about 14ppt when using hypo. Sharks and rayfish have a different type of osmoregulation so they cannot live in low salinity. Inverts generally are osmo-conformers so they have the same internal salinity as the environment. Inverts don't do well in hypo.

Terry B