Have enough of Tropic Marin Pro Salt

[this is me]

You can call where you bought it from and talk with them. Even they agree to take from your return, you're most likely have to pay for shipping and that can cost a lot.
This is the reason I don't buy salt mix from online vender.
I would call them and see what they can do for you. Good luck

 

[tozzi]

Sad news, tropic pro is my favorite salt. Usually buy 4-5 buckets a time and was lookin to restock this month. A good alternative i have used is d+d but i dont like the residue it has left in the past. I did hear they corrected this and it doesnt happen with newer batches though. Its low alk so its also good for zeo

 

[Skins]

Something is definately different with the newer batches. The last two buckets I have used were both hard as a rock (somehow moisture must be getting in ... or could it be something else)? This was not a problem before ...

Same here. $100 brick.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Hello,

I am the product manager of Tropic Marin/Dr. Biener GmbH in Germany.
First problem: The hardenings occured after we have changed to a higher grade and more expensive calcium salt. Problems occured in hot climates and last summer was hot in the United States I think. We try to get rid of the problem and to exchange all hardend salt.

Second Problem: The overall formula has not been changed. As far as I know Nick has never tried to contact us.
PRO-REEF has never had a KH higher than 7° at 35 PSU salinity. If you make up saltwater with a lower salinity it will result in lower KH, of course.
Higher KH in the salt could rapidly result in KH higher than 8° when running a calcium reactor or adding two/three part calcium additives. Since KH higher than 8° can cause serious problems with SPS we still are convinced that 7° KH is a very good KH for a reef salt and we will not change it.
Natural seawater has a KH of only 6.5° at 35 PSU ("normalized alkalinity").

It is difficult to provoke problems by low KH. I am sure you will hardly be able to see any effect of KH as low as 5°. Since I have developed the Balling-Method in 1994 I have some experince with this theme.

Hans-Werner

 

[RokleM]

Hans-Werner,

Thanks for the response. The issue is however that while you're reporting no change, many of us seasoned reefers HAVE seen a change in the dKH of the buckets having used the products for years. How do you explain the number of us that have seen this issue considering we're all using different test kits, different refractometers, etc? If we were all using salifert for example and happened to all get the same batch of bad test kits at once and all opened a new bucket a the same time... then clearly it could be the kit. I have a stack of TMP buckets that was almost past my waist (and that's after getting rid of many), so I and many of us are not new to the brand or the parameters it has produced in the past vs what we're seeing now. I'm not calling you out as a liar about the salt, but clearly something seems to have changed (intentional or not) or all of us wouldn't be reporting the issue.

As for the general reef parameters, this is the difference I believe in US vs euro reefkeeping. In the US dosing and calcium reactors should have ZERO impact on your current alk/calc/mag levels. These products and devices are built and used to exactly replace the amount of alk/calc/mag used by corals. If your corals use 1 dKH in a 24 hour period, you dose or tune your reactor to replace 1 dKH in a 24 hours period. It's impossible for dosing or reactors to increase levels unless they're set up wrong. As well, unless you're running a zeo tank, the vast majority would day 6-7 dDH is very low and around 5 you should be in panic mode. 8-12 is the norm, with many running right around 8.5-9.5 via forum polls. Again, maybe in general it's different corals being kept, different setups with salt and/or tank equipment, but what you're stating is quite out of the norm or recommended practice here in the US.

 

[subielover]

I use tmp and keep my alk around 7-7.5, I find my sps achieve their best coloration with close to nsw levels.

 

[RokleM]

Also note SPS vs other tanks vary a bit. SPS guys are kind of all over the board with a section adamant about keeping higher around 12 dKH, zeo guys and some others (like subielover) like to keep lower as they feel it helps colors more, with what appears to be a majority around 8.5-9.5ish.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Eric,

to detect if there has been a mistake from our side, we need the batch number which can be found stamped on the underside of the lid. We did get only few emails regarding low alkalinity and most were from customers that did get alarmed by threads in this forum.
I can read some postings that customers have bought PRO-REEF and now, alarmed by this thread, are annoyed about a KH of 7° when in fact we never claimed anything else but being close to natural nevels.
A KH of 7° means in my eyes, the salt is at its optimum value, no need for any change. If you believe something different you have to take a different salt, maybe the classic Tropic Marin Mix.
The problem is, you cannot have everything, a salt with high calcium, high KH and free of synthetic chelators because you already get saturation with calcium carbonate at natural levels. If you elevate calcium and KH over natural levels you will get precipitates if you don´t use synthetic chelators. So you have to make your decision what you want.

IMHO the difference is in the levels of KH in the US in comparision to Europe. While in Europe in the last decade the insight has spread that it is not advantageous to elevate KH above natural levels, at least not in low nutrient systems, in the US elevated KH levels are still widespread and believed to be advantageous.

Hans-Werner

 

[snorvich]

Well, now I am confused. I was about to change to Tropic Marin Pro salt because I wanted natural sea water composition. But if KH is really below 7 at 1.0264 SG, I would need to adjust it. The rest of the readings are perfect for me.

 

[RokleM]

A recent bucket of mine would be 24240. Unfortunately I used the last of it a couple weeks ago so I can not go back and test again or send you a sample. If I recall right, it was reading right around 100 ppm via LaMotte or ~5.5 dKH, confirmed by an Elos kit. Using the same test kit manufactures, my buckets use to be about 146-156 ppm or 8.25-8.75 dKH roughly. Before swapping out a test kit, I always ensure the old kit matches the new one, so it's not a variation in either (or both) test kits.

TMP has always been claimed to be a lower dKH, yes. I have never had a 7 bucket, but typically 8.25-8.75 which is fine for me. The problem is now that the buckets are significantly lower than that, many reported in the 5-6 range, a full 2-3 dKH lower than previous buckets.

That's right around 1.025-1.026 via reafractometer, confirmed via calibration fluid and pinpoint salinity probe, mixing container open for oxygen mixing in batches of roughly 55g each.

 

[pencil3]

I've been having issues as well with recently purchased buckets. I believe I have been using this salt for around two years now and it has always tested very consistently at 8.0-8.5 dKH, 440 ca, and 1350 mag for me. With the new batch I am getting 5.5 dKH, 470 ca, and mag is off the chart at over 1500. Using the same exact salifert test kits I can mix and test between the two batches and get the above results.

Batch number: 12250 tests consistently at 8.0-8.5 dKH, 440 ca, and 1350 mag.

Batch number: 41400 tests at 5.5 dKH, 470 ca, and mag is off the chart at over 1500.

 

[rogerwilco357]

wow glad i didn't change over ..I was thinking of doing so but will stay with my current salt. I mean the product they make should be consistent I mean they do know who is using this and what for and the people that do use this for the hobby are always testing as we have alot to loose in our tanks and don't risk it so to try to pass something off and think those silly people won't know is funny reefers are some of the most detailed people i have ever met they didn't take that into consideration or the forums we use?

 

[Hans-Werner]

All ingredients are weighted thoroughly and controlled by a second person.
The problem of settling of some components due to vibrations during transportions has already been mentioned.

I will check the batches next week but I already can tell that the batches 24240 and 12250 are manufactured at the same time, just three days apart. 12250 is the one that is manufactured three days later.

Hans-Werner

 

[pencil3]

Just some more info, not sure if it helps any but I halso have purchase dates as well:

Batch number: 12250 (8.0-8.5 dKH, 440 ca, and 1350 mag) purchased: 8/10/10

Batch number: 41400 (5.5 dKH, 470 ca, and mag over 1500) purchased: 1/17/11

 

[RokleM]

I assumed they were in sequence. There is a possibility the number I gave you is not the most recent bucket. I have a couple different types of salts and I use buckets to fully mix everything up when I get new buckets (since i don't make 150-200g at a time and ensure there is no settling). So I could have not put the most recent lid on the most recent bucket.

13517, 12250, 24080, 22209, 21167, 23139, 14148, 13439 are all towards the top of my lid pile It wouldn't be anything made too much before 5.1.2010, which is when I got my first low bucket.

(edit 42377 is another)

 

[Skins]

Hello,

We try to get rid of the problem and to exchange all hardend salt.

How do I go about returning it? My local fish store wouldn't take it back because it had been 30 days before I opened it and noticed it was a brick.

 

[kduen]

Same here.

 

[Mental1]

Hans -- I would like to add my story into the mix here. I have used TM for 5 years and have never seen Alk so low. My tank was at 5 -- I test about once a month so it was quite sudden. I believe my problem batch is 35300. I have always trusted TM but you are losing me now. I am confused as to what has happened because you are saying there have not been any changes yet I am seeing a dramatic change on my side.

 

[this is me]

The overall formula has not been changed. As far as I know Nick has never tried to contact us.
PRO-REEF has never had a KH higher than 7° at 35 PSU salinity. If you make up saltwater with a lower salinity it will result in lower KH, of course.
Higher KH in the salt could rapidly result in KH higher than 8° when running a calcium reactor or adding two/three part calcium additives. Since KH higher than 8° can cause serious problems with SPS we still are convinced that 7° KH is a very good KH for a reef salt and we will not change it.
Natural seawater has a KH of only 6.5° at 35 PSU ("normalized alkalinity").

It is difficult to provoke problems by low KH. I am sure you will hardly be able to see any effect of KH as low as 5°. Since I have developed the Balling-Method in 1994 I have some experince with this theme.

Hans-Werner

Hans,
You are correct. I did not try to contact you. When I talked with my lfs owner, he said not to bother, just bring in the salt and he'll swap it.

I do not agree with your statement of the Pro-Reef has always been having KH of less than 7dKH. I've used this salt for years and it has always8-9dKH. The TM-Pro was stickied in the salt mix parameters having dKH of 8.5.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1714505
And there's numerous reports of 8.5dKH in TM-pro. This is a pretty well known fact. Please see thread.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1287118

I always test my salt when I get a new bucket, test halfway and then test at the bottom. If there was a time that I get less than 7dKH, I would've switched the salt immediately because that's not the level I keep my tank at.
With the past TM-PRo and my calcium reactor, my level has always been in the 8dKH-9dKH range and calcium of 450ppm. This was the appeal of the TM-Pro. I did not have to add anything in my salt mix.

The batch number of my bucket is 23270. This is the new bucket with 5dKH.

With the two recent buckets I got. The salt looks to be pellet-like. I don't ever recall seeing stuff like this in all the previous bucket. And yes, I did scoop it around so this is not just from the top.

 

[The Velvet Sea]

I don't know how salt manufacturers determine the alk of their mix, but a discrepancy of 1.5 dKH can be the caused by different test methods. Take Elos vs. Salifert alk kit differences for example. That doesn't explain the current reports of 5 dKH but it could explain TM reporting 7 dKH when hobbyists had been reporting 8.5. Just a thought.