Having trouble keeping SPS happy.

[Lamball1]

Whoa, decrease the dosing... I can't believe that could be good for any livestock

 

[JG1]

ULNS only worked for me as nitrates were falling. Once I hit zero my corals looked pale. I also always had a little algae here and there. it's really no big deal unless it gets out of control. Algae is present on the most pristine reefs in the world yet the reefs measure 0 nitrate and .003 ppm phosphate. This is why I don't trust phosphate as a sole SPS killer unless you can actually measure it on the cheapest of liquid hobby grade kits. Maybe someone needs to run some GFO in the South Pacific :lmao:

Seriously though. Do not equate algae blooms to a definite nutrient problem. Tanks go through cycles and periods of algae blooms. After I hit zero on nitrates my SPS looked terribly pale with less polyp extension. I also had some hair algae. Running GFO would have been many on this forum's suggestion and it would have wiped out my SPS. I chose to cut the carbon dosing in half, even though I was at a maintenance dose and started feeding more. The SPS colored up and the algae actually slowly receded through regular regular water changes and manual removal once a week. The salinity may have been raised a little too quickly also. Aside from stability being key, I would check my RODI cartridges and see if the water being added is helping in nutrient export or slowly building it up with less than desirable components.

Alex,

So what are you suggesting? Cut back on carbon dosing? Seems like your not a fan of GFO, what do you do for PO4 control?

My NO3 is 0 so I think that is negatively effecting my corals. My water out my ro/di shows 0 tds

 

[RRaider]

Go slow, give it a month or so at the correct salinity and see if things improve, then make more changes if needed, one at a time slowly so you know what worked and what didn't.

 

[JG1]

Go slow, give it a month or so at the correct salinity and see if things improve, then make more changes if needed, one at a time slowly so you know what worked and what didn't.

I will thanks. I'm gonna try to feed the SPS specifically as well.

 

[JG1]

Guys,

Oyster feast. Should this be fed every night or every other night? I dosed 1 capful last night, turned the return pump off for 45 minutes after I dosed because I use a filter sock and wasn't sure if I'd lose the product to fast if I kept it running.

 

[BowieReefer84]

Feed more! I recommend coral frenzy, reef chili, reefroids, cyclopeeze, etc... Monitor nitrates, and keep them around 3 or 4 plus or minus. Post some pictures?

 

[JG1]

Yes, I just bought a bottle of oyster feast and dosed this last night. I guess I'll dose it EOD.

I also just placed an order for GP's 50-100 micron from BSD.

 

[Alex T.]

Personally I wouldn't just start dumping Oyster Feast or any of the other reef foods in the tank right now. If algae is excessive like you state, then this stuff is rocket fuel. I would stop the carbon dosing for a little while....a week or so.

Then slowly let your nitrates rise. When they start to rise, then run the GFO if you wish or start up on carbon dosing. I've heard of many people who had great tanks with carbon dosing but then PO4 would become an issue. It appears that because nitrate is limited that PO4 can sustain a higher level. Letting nitrate rise actually worked for me by simply stopping the carbon dosing. I noticed some of my best coloration and growth the month after stopping carbon dosing.

Your corals may be stressed from PO4 or too little of food. If you start dumping more food in and it's a phosphate related issue....you could be in real trouble. However, if you stop carbon dosing and feed the same there shouldn't be such a dramatic shock at first. It will be easier to gauge what's going on. If they color up, you were dosing too much and need to cut back or eliminate it altogether. Too many times people think they need to carbon dose to reach nirvana when a slow and steady approach with sound husbandry, lighting, feeding and stocking is all most of us needs.

 

[djkms]

I think everyone is looking over the most basic and important fact. This tank is only 4 months old. My sps didn't start getting happy til about the 6 month mark and the only drastic thing I did was stop using gfo.

Your tank is still maturing and every change you make to your routine is just setting you back further. Your water chemistry needs time to adjust to what your doing.

Step back, take a breather and really think and research on how you want to maintain your system. Nature is amazing and whatever route you decide things will balance out. You just have to be persistent, stable and most importantly no sudden changes.

Sent from my Droid Incredible.

 

[JG1]

Personally I wouldn't just start dumping Oyster Feast or any of the other reef foods in the tank right now. If algae is excessive like you state, then this stuff is rocket fuel. I would stop the carbon dosing for a little while....a week or so.

Then slowly let your nitrates rise. When they start to rise, then run the GFO if you wish or start up on carbon dosing. I've heard of many people who had great tanks with carbon dosing but then PO4 would become an issue. It appears that because nitrate is limited that PO4 can sustain a higher level. Letting nitrate rise actually worked for me by simply stopping the carbon dosing. I noticed some of my best coloration and growth the month after stopping carbon dosing.

Your corals may be stressed from PO4 or too little of food. If you start dumping more food in and it's a phosphate related issue....you could be in real trouble. However, if you stop carbon dosing and feed the same there shouldn't be such a dramatic shock at first. It will be easier to gauge what's going on. If they color up, you were dosing too much and need to cut back or eliminate it altogether. Too many times people think they need to carbon dose to reach nirvana when a slow and steady approach with sound husbandry, lighting, feeding and stocking is all most of us needs.

Hey Alex,

Actually, I really don't have any algae problems at all. Even the glass takes a while to build up a film.

I do think I'm NO3 limited and have cut my Start3 dose down from 0.4ml/twice day to 0.25ml/twice day.

Do you still feel I should drop carbon dosing completely? And if so, stop dosing the other products as well?

 

[JG1]

I think everyone is looking over the most basic and important fact. This tank is only 4 months old. My sps didn't start getting happy til about the 6 month mark and the only drastic thing I did was stop using gfo.

Your tank is still maturing and every change you make to your routine is just setting you back further. Your water chemistry needs time to adjust to what your doing.

Step back, take a breather and really think and research on how you want to maintain your system. Nature is amazing and whatever route you decide things will balance out. You just have to be persistent, stable and most importantly no sudden changes.

Sent from my Droid Incredible.

Good advice and I do agree, the tank is young at only 5 months.

 

[Alex T.]

Well JG, not all tanks need carbon dosing. Yours may be one of them. Aside from all the additives you're dosing, you really may not have enough fish. I've never done the Zeovit system. It's simply too hands-on for my schedule.

You never know. Your tank may do just fine without the carbon dosing. Carbon dosing seems to really help the impulse fish buyers that have a fairly heavy stocking of fish that that like to feed a lot. And even then there's some problems.

Case in point....I had a heavily stocked system over a year ago. My 150 gallon sps tank had a Yellow Tang, Achilles Tang, Sailfin Tang, Coral Beauty, Passer Angel (surprisingly reef safe), 5 chromis, 2 Lyretail Anthias, Maroon Clownfish, Blue Devil Damsel, Sixline Wrasse and Sebae Clown. I was feeding 4 cubes of frozen food and pellet per day. I was changing 25 gallons of water per week, ran a large, power hungry 4 foot ETSS skimmer and measured 0 nitrates and unmeasurable phosphates. I was dosing 7 ml of vodka and 16 ml of vinegar per day while running GFO. This was a high maintenance system and really started to wear on me. My SPS at first looked full of color and had great polyp extension. Over the course of six months they didn't look so hot. Colors were fading and growth had all but ceased. Many were even receding from the base. I had no visible algae anywhere and could never measure any phosphate.

I re-homed the Passer Angel, Sailfin Tang, One Chromis, and both clownfish. Sadly, the stress of catching all these fish stressed my Achilles and he passed a few weeks later after an extended hunger strike. I vowed to never do this again. The remaining fish are all I have. I took the GFO offline, dropped carbon dosing completely, cut water changes to 15 gallons per week and had a small hair algae bloom. I still measured no nitrate or phosphate but was now feeding much less....a cube of frozen mysis in the morning before work and a pinch of NLS pellet when I came home. Within a month or so the hair algae had subsided and my corals went pale colored. I assumed it was because of the sudden drop in feeding. I purchased a more reasonably sized skimmer (SRO XP 2000) and skimmed somewhat dry. Within a month the hair algae had subsided on its own and nitrates climbed to 2 ppm. My SPS never looked better. Polyp extension is constant throughout the day, the fish are healthy, unstressed and uncrowded and the tank affords me much more viewing time than tinkering time.

I believe that when running a ULNS system, you teeter on the fence between disaster and success. Stripping the water clean only to add nutrients is a net/net effect. In the wild corals have almost 24/7 access to planctonic food that is available. We obviously can't mimic this level of nutrient exposure in our systems without crashing them so we look for other means of coloring up and feeding our corals so that they grow. One question I asked myself was this.....Instead of carbon dosing, feeding heavy and then stripping the tank clean, wouldn't it be more beneficial and CHEAPER if I ran the tank slightly "dirty" all the time with a modest stocking list and adquate feeding for the fish that I keep? The answer after a few months was a resounding YES. I'm not alone in this belief. After sifting through some TOTM winner profiles, I noticed that two of my favorite reefs (Keith Berkelheimer and Mark Polleti) don't carbon dose, run measurable, single digit nitrates and feed well but not overfeed. I would place their tanks in the same category as even the best of Zeo systems. Not only is it cheaper, but the net/net affect of the proper amount of nutrient exposure for their corals is the same. Since nitrates seem to be much less an issue to sps corals than phosphate, both run gfo, yet change it out rather infrequently. Limiting nitrate and phosphate together seems to put more stress on the corals from what I've seen. Letting the fertilizing effects of nitrate linger while controlling phosphate with moderate gfo use seems to garner the same result with a cheaper bottom line.

Again, this is only my opinion. I have no evidence or scientific backup other than what I've observed in my own system. Nobody can tell you what to do in your reef tank, but stepping back for a bit and taking in the big picture of how your animals are responding to your husbandry practices as opposed to chasing "holy grail" parameter numbers can be a better teacher. None of us, save a few, truly understands the scope of everything that affects a coral's health. There are many ways to go about keeping an SPS tank. Some are expensive and time consuming, while some are more reliant on your keen eye to pick up on what's happening and slowly making the adjustment. I chose the latter and it's made the hobby more enjoyable.

 

[djkms]

Alex,

I really enjoyed reading your post. I agree with your thoughts on ULNS systems as well. It is a really fine line between death and success. IMO the only reason to run a ULNS system is so you can really overfeed your fish AND corals without "negative" side affects.

I think the TOTM syndrome has a lot to do with hobbyist frustration as well. Every month we see these spectacular systems which appear to be perfect. What we have to realize though is that those systems are at the pinnacle of their life. I have a hard time believing that the TOTM's systems look that way all the time. I guarantee you that they go through the same BS crap we do. All of us strive for perfection with our systems, we just have to keep it realistic and consistent.

In general most of us want instant gratification and when it appears what we are doing is not working we want to change it right away to something else. Saltwater systems don't work like that though. Anytime you change something it can take months to physically see a difference. I was the same way with my system. Ok this doesnt look happy what can I change? Lets change this, lets do that, lets not do this anymore. The problem was if I changed one thing it would make another thing unhappy. So I decided with my current build I would KISS (keep it simple stupid) and just sit back and enjoy my tank. I don't use any fancy expensive additives or have any fancy super duper equipment. My tank consists of a fuge, carbon reactor and protein skimmer. My nutrient export is through macro's in my display and fuge and of course the skimmer. I have lost a few SPS colonies with this setup but I dont blame my husbandry as much as I do the fact the system is young and more importantly the SPS that have perished were wild colonies.

 

[JG1]

Well JG, not all tanks need carbon dosing. Yours may be one of them. Aside from all the additives you're dosing, you really may not have enough fish. I've never done the Zeovit system. It's simply too hands-on for my schedule.

You never know. Your tank may do just fine without the carbon dosing. Carbon dosing seems to really help the impulse fish buyers that have a fairly heavy stocking of fish that that like to feed a lot. And even then there's some problems.

Case in point....I had a heavily stocked system over a year ago. My 150 gallon sps tank had a Yellow Tang, Achilles Tang, Sailfin Tang, Coral Beauty, Passer Angel (surprisingly reef safe), 5 chromis, 2 Lyretail Anthias, Maroon Clownfish, Blue Devil Damsel, Sixline Wrasse and Sebae Clown. I was feeding 4 cubes of frozen food and pellet per day. I was changing 25 gallons of water per week, ran a large, power hungry 4 foot ETSS skimmer and measured 0 nitrates and unmeasurable phosphates. I was dosing 7 ml of vodka and 16 ml of vinegar per day while running GFO. This was a high maintenance system and really started to wear on me. My SPS at first looked full of color and had great polyp extension. Over the course of six months they didn't look so hot. Colors were fading and growth had all but ceased. Many were even receding from the base. I had no visible algae anywhere and could never measure any phosphate.

I re-homed the Passer Angel, Sailfin Tang, One Chromis, and both clownfish. Sadly, the stress of catching all these fish stressed my Achilles and he passed a few weeks later after an extended hunger strike. I vowed to never do this again. The remaining fish are all I have. I took the GFO offline, dropped carbon dosing completely, cut water changes to 15 gallons per week and had a small hair algae bloom. I still measured no nitrate or phosphate but was now feeding much less....a cube of frozen mysis in the morning before work and a pinch of NLS pellet when I came home. Within a month or so the hair algae had subsided and my corals went pale colored. I assumed it was because of the sudden drop in feeding. I purchased a more reasonably sized skimmer (SRO XP 2000) and skimmed somewhat dry. Within a month the hair algae had subsided on its own and nitrates climbed to 2 ppm. My SPS never looked better. Polyp extension is constant throughout the day, the fish are healthy, unstressed and uncrowded and the tank affords me much more viewing time than tinkering time.

I believe that when running a ULNS system, you teeter on the fence between disaster and success. Stripping the water clean only to add nutrients is a net/net effect. In the wild corals have almost 24/7 access to planctonic food that is available. We obviously can't mimic this level of nutrient exposure in our systems without crashing them so we look for other means of coloring up and feeding our corals so that they grow. One question I asked myself was this.....Instead of carbon dosing, feeding heavy and then stripping the tank clean, wouldn't it be more beneficial and CHEAPER if I ran the tank slightly "dirty" all the time with a modest stocking list and adquate feeding for the fish that I keep? The answer after a few months was a resounding YES. I'm not alone in this belief. After sifting through some TOTM winner profiles, I noticed that two of my favorite reefs (Keith Berkelheimer and Mark Polleti) don't carbon dose, run measurable, single digit nitrates and feed well but not overfeed. I would place their tanks in the same category as even the best of Zeo systems. Not only is it cheaper, but the net/net affect of the proper amount of nutrient exposure for their corals is the same. Since nitrates seem to be much less an issue to sps corals than phosphate, both run gfo, yet change it out rather infrequently. Limiting nitrate and phosphate together seems to put more stress on the corals from what I've seen. Letting the fertilizing effects of nitrate linger while controlling phosphate with moderate gfo use seems to garner the same result with a cheaper bottom line.

Again, this is only my opinion. I have no evidence or scientific backup other than what I've observed in my own system. Nobody can tell you what to do in your reef tank, but stepping back for a bit and taking in the big picture of how your animals are responding to your husbandry practices as opposed to chasing "holy grail" parameter numbers can be a better teacher. None of us, save a few, truly understands the scope of everything that affects a coral's health. There are many ways to go about keeping an SPS tank. Some are expensive and time consuming, while some are more reliant on your keen eye to pick up on what's happening and slowly making the adjustment. I chose the latter and it's made the hobby more enjoyable.

Very good post Alex, thank you.

I've been wanting to stop zeovit and your post just reinforces my thought of it. I've seen so many tanks that are setup really simply yet are thriving and look terrific. My setup is exhausting and has little reward to show for the effort.

My worry about stopping carbon dosing is PO4 control, as I really don't have room for a fuge. I suppose a little GFO can help in that department though.

I do believe the ULNS method is stripping the water of food for the corals.

I'm not sure at this point though do I just pull the zeovit Rx and stop with the additives? Do I wait to add GFO? I'm just not sure what's the best way to transition from what I'm doing now to a KISS method.

 

[clowndude]

I think everyone is looking over the most basic and important fact. This tank is only 4 months old. My sps didn't start getting happy til about the 6 month mark and the only drastic thing I did was stop using gfo.

Your tank is still maturing and every change you make to your routine is just setting you back further. Your water chemistry needs time to adjust to what your doing.

Step back, take a breather and really think and research on how you want to maintain your system. Nature is amazing and whatever route you decide things will balance out. You just have to be persistent, stable and most importantly no sudden changes.

Sent from my Droid Incredible.

I agree with this. I was fighting my first tank and then I decided to leave thinks alone and sure enough the tank came around. Coraline started growing like mad, sps started growing and coloring up. Tanks gotta go through their cycle and I think sometimes we forget that when we see these tanks full of sps and color. Even their tanks take time to get that way. Remember nothing is over night when it comes to aquariums.

 

[Alex T.]

I absolutely agree that TOTM winners go through the same BS we do. I've even had nice PM's with a few. What they excel at is the keen eye to the little nuances that happen in a tank and implementing change slowly. Their success is no coincidence. It's a testament to their perseverance, husbandry skills and the most important asset when growing an SPS reef...patience.

They all clean their glass every few days from scum buildup. They've all had losses but have learned from it and moved on instead of making the same mistakes over again. I don't want anyone to think that I'm slamming ULNS. It has proven to create an extremely beautiful display of SPS corals and nobody can doubt that. What scares me is the exactness of its' dosing requirements and strict parameter controls that dictate a low, near seawater alkalinity. Stray a few dKH by changing a salt and the result could be catastrophic.

JG, I think if you stopped zeo cold turkey and watched your system you would be keenly aware of its' needs, much more so than following someone's prescribed dosing regimen. I like trusting myself and how things are doing rather than my test kits. You'll be surprised how much you can pick up by simple observations in your fish behavior, coral health and skimmer production. I was in the same situation a while back where I was actually addicted to vodka dosing, as if there was no other way I could keep my SPS colorful and thriving unless my Salifert kit read 0.

Within a few weeks of testing you would know if what you were feeding your fish could spike nutrients....if at all. If it stays the same, then your corals probably never needed the ULNS approach in the first place. If nitrate climbs a little let it go. As it climbs you could start conservatively running gfo while keeping some nitrate always in the water column. Back off the feeding a bit if general maintenance and water changes can't keep them under 5 ppm. You may also find you don't need any GFO at all. Calcium and alkalinity swings within a point or two will not be as severe a punishment without carbon dosing as well.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[JG1]

Alex,

I took the zeo Rx out last night and put all the additives away in the basement. Not dosing ANYTHING anymore except foods for the corals (oyster feast, GP's) and fish. Did a 30g water change this morning because my K is a little high since I adjusted the salinity. Will do another 30g change tomorrow and that should bring my K to right about 400....it got high because I had to dose a lot of K since my salinity was low...then when I fixed that salinity issue and then had a high K issue.

Will keep an eye in NO3 and try to keep a small amount in the tank. If PO4 starts climbing I'll throw in the GFO Rx to bring it down.

That's basically gonna be the routine now. No dosing except for two part solution. Just feedings and weekly water changes, GFO if needed and carbon.

 

[JG1]

Do have a quick question.....should I still aim to keep Alk at around 7dkh? Or bring it up a little?

 

[Alex T.]

If anything, you may notice some increased polyp extension in the next few weeks as the corals adjust and start to feed on what's in the water column. That's what happened to me. Don't change any other part of your maintenance or feeding of fishes so you can see which way to adjust in the coming weeks/months.

I wouldn't be in such a rush to change the alkalinity. It may slowly creep up on its' own now that GFO and carbon dosing have been taken offline.

After carbon dosing, and even with my calcium reactor and regular water changes with Reef Crystals my alkalinity hovers between 7 and 8 anyway. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Trying to change too many things at once right now could throw you for a loop as to what is going wrong and make you pull your hair out. Besides, I'm not one to chase numbers anymore when things are looking good at their current state. When things start taking a turn for the better to your eye test your parameters and then keep them there. Who cares what others (myself included) say is right or wrong as to where your tank should be running. We've all seen corals with excellent growth and coloration at all ends of the alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, nitrate and phosphate reading scales. If you find a sweet spot that is easy to maintain while everything is looking good, you'll have a benchmark to measure against when things look just a little off to you. Taking pictures of your sps with your cell phone will help to see any negative or positive changes and have something to compare to when you initially stopped zeo. The first ones to color up in my system were greens and yellows. I now use these as my canary in the coal mine. If they're having trouble, I have a big problem because they seem to be the easiest for me. Purples were absolutely dead last to color up. I've read before that purple and red sps like a little more nutrients in the tank. My ORA Bellina and Purple Nana did not start to reach their true purple coloration until I stopped carbon dosing and hovered around 2 ppm nitrate. I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised at how screwing less with your tank is more beneficial. I don't mean ignoring your maintenance routines or anything like that, but don't fret on trying to find the perfect spot and flow for everything in the tank and monitoring things daily. Use every two weeks as a guide to compare from the previous couple weeks. If things start looking better, don't do more of what you're doing....stay where you are. It took me almost 8 months to start seeing full recovery and coloration after carbon dosing. Change is not overnight, but as long as things aren't getting worse you most likely will be on the right track.

 

[JG1]

If anything, you may notice some increased polyp extension in the next few weeks as the corals adjust and start to feed on what's in the water column. That's what happened to me. Don't change any other part of your maintenance or feeding of fishes so you can see which way to adjust in the coming weeks/months.

I wouldn't be in such a rush to change the alkalinity. It may slowly creep up on its' own now that GFO and carbon dosing have been taken offline.

After carbon dosing, and even with my calcium reactor and regular water changes with Reef Crystals my alkalinity hovers between 7 and 8 anyway. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Trying to change too many things at once right now could throw you for a loop as to what is going wrong and make you pull your hair out. Besides, I'm not one to chase numbers anymore when things are looking good at their current state. When things start taking a turn for the better to your eye test your parameters and then keep them there. Who cares what others (myself included) say is right or wrong as to where your tank should be running. We've all seen corals with excellent growth and coloration at all ends of the alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, nitrate and phosphate reading scales. If you find a sweet spot that is easy to maintain while everything is looking good, you'll have a benchmark to measure against when things look just a little off to you. Taking pictures of your sps with your cell phone will help to see any negative or positive changes and have something to compare to when you initially stopped zeo. The first ones to color up in my system were greens and yellows. I now use these as my canary in the coal mine. If they're having trouble, I have a big problem because they seem to be the easiest for me. Purples were absolutely dead last to color up. I've read before that purple and red sps like a little more nutrients in the tank. My ORA Bellina and Purple Nana did not start to reach their true purple coloration until I stopped carbon dosing and hovered around 2 ppm nitrate. I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised at how screwing less with your tank is more beneficial. I don't mean ignoring your maintenance routines or anything like that, but don't fret on trying to find the perfect spot and flow for everything in the tank and monitoring things daily. Use every two weeks as a guide to compare from the previous couple weeks. If things start looking better, don't do more of what you're doing....stay where you are. It took me almost 8 months to start seeing full recovery and coloration after carbon dosing. Change is not overnight, but as long as things aren't getting worse you most likely will be on the right track.

Thanks agin for the advice. I won't change anything other then dropping the zeovit. Honestly, it feels like a huge weight off my back not to have to dose so much crap daily.

What test kit do you like for nitrate? My sailfert is kind of hard to read on the low end.

I know I probably stressed everything out pretty well from fixing my salinity, dropping zeovit, then fixing the high K level. I'll just leave the tank be for a few months and hopefully things will bounce back.