HELP!!!!!! Angel not doing well!

[L8 2 RISE]

Well I just went down stairs after getting home and found one of my three new multibar angels (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1772635) was lying on its side in a pipe. When it saw me, it quickly "got up" but had a dark "saddle" type thing on it's back and didn't seem to be able to stay up in the water so would quickly sink back down. It's the largest of the three I have, and is the only one that really doesn't seem to have any nipped fins. I did briefly see one of the other angels turn on its side on top of the angel and sort of brush it with its tail (sort of like a tang does). It seemed like it was trying to keep the ill angel on the bottom of the aquarium (not that it really needed to be doing this in order for that to happen) and seemed aggressive, however not "damage causing". The sick one is also breathing very hard. None of the fish have eaten since they arrived Friday, however I was told they were eating before they were shipped. Here's some pics:

 

[L8 2 RISE]

This is the first I've seen the pics bigger than thumb nail size because I wanted to get them up quick, so sorry for the quality. I hadn't noticed that the "saddle" was purpleish until I looked at the pics, in person, to me at least, it looked more just dulled color to grey/black.

EDIT: the second picture is a good example of what it looked like to me in person.

Any help you all have would be greatly appreciated!

 

[jsf668]

Looks like it could be Seticemia or even worse Uronema. I am no expert but I would post this in the Fish Disease Forum. Septicimia can be treated with Erthromycin but as far as Uronema I am not sure but, I do know it is usually fatal. Hope this helps you.

 

[flameangel88]

Sorry to see this as they are truly beautiful fish. Many factors here: 1) these are found in deeper water and who knows if decompression was an issue 2) not sure if this applies but when introducing multiple para/centropyge in QT it's best to separate them initially to diminish aggression during intro phase because in confined space I've seen them to be quite aggressive toward each other.

I've had a female Watanabe last year while in QT the back half of the fish just turned dark grey to light black over night (started with swimming problem as well) and she didn't last for more than 2 days after that and she was already in QT for couple of weeks.

You mention the vendor said they were eating so out of curiosity--were these fish out of NY?

 

[ccampbell57]

Sorry to see your fish like that. I have seen this many times with fish.

Your fish has some bacterial infection that is causing the bruise look on its back. The first issue was that you placed all three fish together at once. You should have sectioned them off till they were all eating and healthy and then introduced them together.

The hostility that you are seeing is the fact that the other fish know the big one is sick and they are in essence trying to kill it.

Your only hope at this point is to section off the fish and add in some maryacin or furan 2. I think your big guy is all but gone, but you need to ensure that the other 2 remain alive.

Time is short and you need to get the others healthy.

 

[jnc914]

Sorry to hear about your fish, however I am afraid that fish is a goner. It is either severe injury from aggression or complications associated with improper decompression. This is why the Multibarred angel have such a bad reputation and are known to just suddenly die. When buying such a delicate fish, you really should be able to observe the fish in person in order to assess it's health and see if it is actually eating prior to purchase. There are a few specific vendors(thankfully none currently on the sponsor page) that make the claim that fish are eating while in their care, then they show up and refuse to eat and waste away in QT. Also you should avoid QTing multiple angels together in a small area so as to lessen aggression. If you want a harem of fish, there should have been one large specimen and 2 smaller specimens. The ones in the picture all appear to be the same size. Hopefully you have a guarantee on these fish.

 

[L8 2 RISE]

Yes, these fish were out of NY and I spoke with him many times about these guys and he wouldnt ship for the first week because he wanted to make sure they were eating. I do have a guarantee. I did have one big and two small, and this fish is the big one. It has died (tbh it didnt surprise me, nor, it would appear, you guys). I did not know about sectioning them off, so will go do that now. I've only seen a slight amount of aggession, which, in comparison to other fish, I'd hardly call aggression because these guys are so shy. Would you all still suggest the furan, etc. just in case with the other two? Thanks a lot for all the reply's, and I REALLY hope it doesnt turn out to be either of those in the first post! I'm really bummed, but hopefully I'll keep the other two going.

 

[caad3]

Tough fish to keep from what i have heard, I think your NY seller now has a two week live guarantee. I would contact them immediately

 

[flameangel88]

Yes, these fish were out of NY and I spoke with him many times about these guys and he wouldnt ship for the first week because he wanted to make sure they were eating. I do have a guarantee. I did have one big and two small, and this fish is the big one. It has died (tbh it didnt surprise me, nor, it would appear, you guys). I did not know about sectioning them off, so will go do that now. I've only seen a slight amount of aggession, which, in comparison to other fish, I'd hardly call aggression because these guys are so shy. Would you all still suggest the furan, etc. just in case with the other two? Thanks a lot for all the reply's, and I REALLY hope it doesnt turn out to be either of those in the first post! I'm really bummed, but hopefully I'll keep the other two going.

Yes, I would definitely section them off. If it was me I wouldn't hesitate to treat with Maracyn 2 immediately.

It's strange but with new additions they are so shy they all run for cover when they see sudden movement but you'll be amazed how much chasing around when we are not around. I usually get out of sight and observe new additions.

The reason I asked about where they came from was that I was so tempted over the holidays on getting 2 or 3 but just couldn't get myself to pull the trigger.

Best of luck with the remaining two.

 

[flameangel88]

I spoke with him many times about these guys and he wouldnt ship for the first week because he wanted to make sure they were eating.

After reading your post again I see a problem here--there are quite a number of experts on this forum with 20+ years of experience in this hobby and more often than not it takes them many weeks to get a delicate/finicky eater to eat prepared food. If anyone can consistently get a finicky fish eating in a week I would consider them fish-god.

I'm just trying to share my experiences and not trying to be offensive to anyone.

 

[LargeAngels]

Sorry to see your fish like that. I have seen this many times with fish.

Me too and they usually die. Most likely a collection/handling issue so I would treat the others just in case. Like others have said section the fish until they are eating.

 

[caad3]

Multibarr

Multibarr

I actually ordered them from the same seller and then cancelled at the last minute. After doing more research and homework the fish that should be left to somebody who is an expert and its definitely not me.. Sorry for you loss, hopefully they survivors will flourish.

Yes, I would definitely section them off. If it was me I wouldn't hesitate to treat with Maracyn 2 immediately.

It's strange but with new additions they are so shy they all run for cover when they see sudden movement but you'll be amazed how much chasing around when we are not around. I usually get out of sight and observe new additions.

The reason I asked about where they came from was that I was so tempted over the holidays on getting 2 or 3 but just couldn't get myself to pull the trigger.

Best of luck with the remaining two.

 

[L8 2 RISE]

The other two are doing well as of now, I just called home. When I do get home, I'll put them each in different sections of the tank, put a few rocks in each side, and take the tank out of the system (just have to turn a ball valve). I'll then head out and pick up some furan II or Maracyn 2. Should I also do a FW dip? How does this sound? Any suggestions on how to get them to eat?


The NY seller did have the 14 day guarantee, but the AMAZING thing is that I got an e-mail early this morning from him saying that he had seen the thread on RC and had ALREADY put credit back in my account. BEFORE I had even e-mailed him. NOW THAT'S customer service!!

flameangel, I understand your point about the food, and didn't expect them to be truly on an eating schedule, what I figured (which is probably what happened) is that he would have them eating/picking at food, sort of like what you look for in a fish in an LFS. I'm hoping the remaining fish live, and am putting all my energy towards keeping them alive. I think I was definitely too lazy to start off with these guys, I've certainly learned a lesson! I also do watch the fish for a while. There's a couch across the room that I'm able to sit at and not really be seen. I've done so for 30 or so minutes a couple of nights since I got them and have not really seen any aggression...

Those of you that think it's something to do with decompression? Could that have still occured after 1-2 weeks of the fish acting fine? I'd really like to know for sure what this was.

Thanks a lot, again, for all the help and thanks for any further suggestions!

 

[LargeAngels]

Even if the fish were eating just having them bagged, shippped and re-acclimated to a different system can cause them to not eat.

 

[jmccown]

Any updates on the other two angels?

 

[LargeAngels]

If they aren't eating you can try putting a live rock and/or some Nori in to see if they will pick at it. If you are medicating with anything just put a rock with algae on it, but no inverts or sponges (if you have one) as most meds will kill inverts and then raise your ammonia.

You can also try cyclopeeze, arctic pods or freshly hatched brine shrimp and leave the pumps on so they move around the tank pretty good. I have found that many dwarfs prefer eating small pieces of food floating in the water column.

 

[L8 2 RISE]

I FW dipped the other two last night and nothing fell off. I also put some LR in there that had some pods on it- hopefully they'll pick at that. I'll try some Nori tonight, I thought about it before, but didn't think it would work so didn't bother, but if you think so, I'll try that. I'm going to pick up some live black worms this weekend that should help, hopefully some cyclpeeze and pods as well. I'll also pick up some garlic/ selcon if I can because I've had good luck getting fish to eat with garlic soaked foods. The foods I have been feeding are either already small or I chop them up, and they do float in the water colum. I'm not desperate yet because they look healthy, but I definitely want them eating before it's too late. As of early this morning, there was nothing wrong with the fish apart from what looked like the possible beginnings of Lymphocystis or something similar on the left fin of one fish, and on the same fish, a bump on the side that I can't get pictures of.

 

[flameangel88]

a bump on the side that I can't get pictures of.

Just some thoughts and I can be totally off here. If the bump on the side has any redness it may be possible decompression issue. If the color is normal and appears as a 'bulge' then possible internal parasites.

Back in 2008 I received 2 Venustus that had slight bump and redness on the body then got worst over the next couple of days.

 

[roktsintst]

You keep teasing me with those Venustus Kevin!!!

 

[L8 2 RISE]

Are you talking about right above the pectoral fin? If so, that's not really what it is. The bump is pretty large actually, but isn't discolored apart from a VERY (and I can't stress that enough) slightly red/purple thin line down the center. It's not a perfect circle, more of an oblique oval shape. Internal parasite?