Help diagnose SPS color issues (nutrients?)

[cambo123]

I consistently struggle to get deep SPS color and I am hoping I can get a second opinion on why. Lets first start with parameter readings.

- Calc 420ppm +- 10ppm
- Alk 7.7dkh +- .3dkh
- Mag 1260ppm +- 50ppm
- Phosphates 0 Hanna
- Nitrates 0 API at double concentration
- Temp 79
- Salinity 1.026

I track these (particularly alk) very consistently and modulate BRS dosing pumps to keep them at my target. I have relatively good growth IMO. This is a 40 breeder with 90% SPS and I dose about ~45ml of alk and calc each day spread over 12 doses.

Now for system details

- 40breeder with coast to coast overflow
- 20g long sump with 1/3 sectioned off for a small huge (just to keep overflow of rock/lps coral and some cool macros) This is lit for 9 hours a day...entirely throughout the early morning to mid morning.
- 2 mp10s at 80+% reefcrest
- GFO and Carbon reactors to be used if necessary
- RO 110 skimmer
- 250 radium MH (8 hours)
- 2 API primes (12 hours blue, 8 hours white at low <20% intensity)
- 40lbs of TBS rock 8months old
- Instant Ocean salt mix
- 8 fish

So there are two aspects here that are obviously playing a roll in this. First, my MH ballast was somehow defective and SUPER under driving my radium. I found this out after renting a par meter and getting 180 par half way down...barely. I resolved this issue about a month ago and am getting much better results (400 ish par mid level). In this process I raised the light to 14in and lowered the time from 8 to 6. I have slowly moved back to 10 in at 8 hours and have not noticed a significant difference, I certainly haven't lost color. Second , I have put more and more fish in here in an effort to increase nutrients. I can NEVER get this balance figured out. If, for example, I turn off GFO and feed heavily, there are clear indications of color improvement yet algae takes off. When I bring GFO back on, algae comes under control but color recedes a bit. Some observations I have had include

1) I have STRONG blue axial polyps but near pale skin color. Many of my corals have nearly white skin but dark dark blue tips. There are corals that were purchased all blue, or all green and blue (think bonsai, valida, ect.)

2) I have strong/deep polyp color but weak, pastel like, skin color.

3) Some montiporas have very strong color, others are nearly white.

4) What LPS I do have (Frogspawn colony and a few chalices in low light) are VERY pale.

Given all this information, I feel that I am missing something. Any ideas?

Thanks for looking

Cameron

 

[SoloGarth]

Pictures? I find I get the color that I like best when nitrates/phosphates are low but not zero. I change the effluent flow rate of my bio pellet Rx primarily based on coral coloration. (Also algae growth on glass).

 

[JPMagyar]

Two issues jump out at me right away if the readings are consistent and accurate. First, zero phosphate is just as bad as too high phosphate. Corals need some trace amounts of phosphate to be healthy. Second, I personally strive to keep my Mg levels at 1400 mg/L or slightly higher, and it has been my experience that when the levels fall below 1300 mg/L my corals lose a lot of color and I notice a great deal more brown zoox. So perhaps adding fish and boosting Mg slightly may help

My tank . . .

 

[JPMagyar]

I would also note though that there is only one method of measuring phosphate that I trust and that is the Hanna Phosphorus ULR checker. I do not trust any titration method as I find people's ability to read the color accurately is minimal. Even with the Hanna meter I do multiple checks to try and get an average reading and sometimes I get wide variations which I assume is largely due to user error.


Oh, and one other obvious possibility. I have found that most GFO resins like Rowaphos etc. will make my corals turn incredibly pale. I know many folks use these products without trouble but my experience using GFO in granular form was not good. I use Brightwells X-Port PO4 which comes in cubes and does not need to be tumbled and needs to be placed in a filter tray or filter sock with very low flow.

I guess the summary of my advice would be:

1) Take out the GFO
2) increase Mg to 1400
3) Raise alk to 8-9 dKh
4) buy a Hanna Phosphorus ULR checker

Do all that and wait 8 weeks before changing any other parameters.

 

[cambo123]

Attached are some pics, sorry they are cellphone pics so they are little off even with the LEDs off. Anyway, you can get an idea. This is by no means bad. Most would say it looks pretty good, just trying to push the tank to the next level. Don't think I can add more fish, feeling pretty maxed out at the moment, but the mag thing is one aspect I didn't put to much thought in. I read this usually doesn't have a substantial effect...maybe not! I am at 1260 as of today.

 

[SoloGarth]

I would also note though that there is only one method of measuring phosphate that I trust and that is the Hanna Phosphorus ULR checker. I do not trust any titration method as I find people's ability to read the color accurately is minimal. Even with the Hanna meter I do multiple checks to try and get an average reading and sometime I get wide variations which I assume is largely due to user error.

Yeah I don't trust any hobby grade test. Haha. The best guide is coral appearance IMO.

 

[cambo123]

I would also note though that there is only one method of measuring phosphate that I trust and that is the Hanna Phosphorus ULR checker. I do not trust any titration method as I find people's ability to read the color accurately is minimal. Even with the Hanna meter I do multiple checks to try and get an average reading and sometime I get wide variations which I assume is largely due to user error.


Oh, and one other obvious possibility. I have found that most GFO resins like Rowaphos etc. will make my corals turn incredibly pale. I know many folks use these products without trouble but my experience using GFO in granular form was not good. I use Brightwells X-Port PO4 which comes in cubes and does not need to be tumbled and needs to be placed in a filter tray or filter sock with very low flow.

I guess before anything else i would take out your GFO and monitor P.

Yeah I just took it off line again today, got my algae back down and will try feeding less. I had just gone about 6 weeks without. Definite improvement but I think I overfed with it! Again that balance is very tuff. Also using the Hanna checker but it isn't the ULR. Didn't know there was a difference at the time...waste of money

 

[JPMagyar]

Yeah it's a shame Hanna even sells the other meter. There is a great video on YouTube that shows both meters testing the same tank water side by side. The phosphate meter misses almost 2/3 of the existing P!!

 

[cambo123]

So I guess my plan might be, keep GFO offline but modulate my feeding to prevent algae growth. There is a CLEAR relationship with GFO online, stuff gets pale, but they way I feed algae comes out a little bit. I was at 1 point doing 2 cubes for these 8 fish. I am down to 1/2 cube or pellots/flakes every day and 1/4 cube of coral gumbo every other day (but the do seem hungry!). Maybe an indication that I need to lower the fish count? Additionally, I will bring mag up to 1400...couldn't hurt. Will try to source out a hanna checker that is ULR

 

[DiscusHeckel]

My corals seem to look happier and more colourful with deep colours when alk is at NSW levels. When alk rises above 8 dKH, my Acropora lokani looks darker. My current alk reading is 6.7 dKH, but is usually between 6.7-7.5 dKH.

I did not notice any correlation between magnesium levels and coral colours, but will certainly observe more carefully from now on. My magnesium levels are usually over 1400 ppm.

I do not use any PO4 adsorber, but use Tropic Marine NP bacto balance daily instead to keep nitrates and phosphates, which are currently 5 ppm and 0.092 mg/l respectively, in check. I use Salifert test kit for nitrates and Elos high sensitivity titration test kit for phosphates.

I also have 7.5 litres of siporax in my sump.

I found that slightly elevated nutrients help with colours. A lot of well fed fish keep my corals happy as long as I export nutrient sufficiently well enough.

 

[JPMagyar]

I feel as if you are trying to countermand my comments. I may be mistaken in that regard and if so please accept my sincere apologies but having said that here are my thoughts.

I would say that your tank represents in my mind old school tanks with dark colors and little pastel coloration. The colors are heavy with green and purple and I would love some macro shots of the other corals because they appear in these photos to have significant brown symbiodinium. It is unquestionably a beautiful reef, but in the world of "Reef Perfection" I do not think you are advancing to the next level, and most importantly the corals in your tank are "old school". You do not have Pearlberry or SSC or other similar pastel colored corals. Should you choose to maintain corals such as these I think you would find your observations would change. Specifically, I have found that alk below 7.0 is detrimental to coral coloration and alk as close to 8.0 as possible enhances coral coloration and Mg is intricately linked to alk so maintaining alk at slightly elevated levels helps maintain alkalinity at 8.0.

I want to emphasize that I think your reef is beautiful, and I would be proud to have such a reef in my living room, but if the game is one of "perfection" (whatever that may be to each of us), I feel strongly that you may be missing some pertinent changes that are happening in reef keeping.

 

[DiscusHeckel]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for your constructive feedback. I appreciate it. Most of my corals are over four years old and some are seven years old. Because of my attachment to them, I find it difficult to replace them with some of the more colourful specimen you mentioned in your reply. Below are some top-down close up photos I took last December. My water parameters at that time were as follows:

KH: 7-7.15 dKH
NO3: 2.5 ppm
PO4: 0.046 mg/l
Mg: 1360-1375 ppm

 

[DiscusHeckel]

The next two corals have been with me for under one month. Both were wild collected. Water parameters at the time taking the photos were as follows:

KH: 6.7 dKH
Ca: 430 ppm
Mg: 1345 ppm
NO3: 5 ppm
PO4: not measured

 

[cambo123]

The depth of the color in these corals is EXACTLY what has eluded me! Cool tanks

 

[nemodan]

A couple of pictures with my tank at 6.5 - 7.5 dkh.

I do not have the experience of the previous reefers, but not so bad for my first almost full SPS tank. BTW those pictures and the coral are great.

Last time I measure Phosp was at 0.04 ppm (Hanna) and NO3 2.5 ppm ( Salifert ) ( this was at least a month ago). Salinity 1026.

If I go over 8 dkh I have problems, as you can read in the last pages of my thread on this forum.














Lights are T5

Of course I picked nice pictures. In my thread you can see much more corals. I do not regret at all the colors I have, but for sure they can be improved , as mentioned by the previous 2 reefers that have far away more experience.

Daniel

 

[nemodan]

I found very difficult to suggest others what are the parameters they have to target. Is easy to explain what is working in your tank under your conditions. Tanks are so different. Some do well in high alk, others not (mine), Some do well with high Phosp. , most do not ....... etc

To many variables when it comes to color !!!!

 

[Marksmithsb2004]

I completely agree with Nemodan! We can all tell you our parameters and debate all day long about them. You gotta try something and stick with it for a month or 2 to see if it's working. What I found has worked for me is: large water changes (60gal in a 180) once every 7-10 days. I dose Aqua Forest Pro Bio S with -NP Pro, daily. Keep up with elements. That gets me some pretty nice colors

 

[cambo123]

I totally agree that it is hard to evaluate beyond the basics. I am taking the assumption that this is nutrient related. In the past I have taken GFO offline and observed some pretty noticeable improvements. For example, I have a SSC frag, that I have had in 3 systems now, that has zero color. When GFO is offline, the faintest hints of red tips begin to show up. When GFO is back online, they go away. In general, corals go from okay to very pale with GFO. However, when I limit GFO, I get lots of atypical algae (fuzzy brown, brown cyano, clear translucent hair type).

I decided to do something last week that is against everything I have learned...I used KN03 to force my nitrates from undetectable to around 1-2ppm and have completely removed my GFO reactor. The results have been, a little bit surprising. The weird algaes described above have completely receded! In conjunction with this approach, I have decided to lift my lights up significantly and cut back significantly on time. Now at 14 in, the MH is on for only 6 hours. The AI primes have been cut back to 11 blues and 6 whites. My strategy is as follows, get the corals to develop a healthy brown look first, THEN focus on bringing the color out. So far, the tank has some very clear signs of improvements. I will keep posted.