Help: Dinoflagellates

miguelp19

New member
hey there fellow reefers, it seems that in one of my tanks i have dinoflagellates :( at the beginning i thought it was cyano, i tried leaving my lights off for two days to see if it would help. it seemed like it did but as soon as i turned them on again, the algae came back. ive read that reducing the lighting time will not help. what can i do to eradicate this?
 
It usually takes a combination of control measures to gain control of dinos. The most important measure is to siphon them out, clean the sand bed and scrub them off the rocks. Running GAC to reduce the dinos toxins and run GFO to control nitrate. Lights out per Randy's article is a good control aid to reduce their growth and set them back, but without the other control measures will not be effect. Increasing pH is a last straw IMHO. ;)

Problem Dinoflagellates and pH
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

From Randy's article:

How to Treat Problem Dinoflagellates
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Here's a series of actions besides raising pH that may help aquarists to deal with problem dinoflagellates.

1. Reduce available nutrients in the water. These include nitrate and especially phosphate. In a severe case, the concerns with driving phosphate too low may be minor compared to the dinoflagellates (and their toxins). In addition to the usual ways of reducing nutrients (skimming, growing macroalgae, deep sand beds, etc.), aquarists should consider very aggressive use of granular ferric oxide (GFO). Putting a larger than normally recommended amount into a canister filter or reactor, and changing it every few days, may help. Don't bother to measure the phosphate level, because the goal is to have it well below normally detectable levels (say, 0.02 ppm).

2. Reduce the photoperiod to four hours per day. This may help to keep the dinoflagellates under control, but by itself will not usually eradicate them.

3. Use more than normal amounts of activated carbon, and possibly ozone, to deal with toxins that the dinoflagellates may be releasing. This may allow snails and other organisms to survive while the dinoflagellates are still at nuisance levels.

4. Manually siphon out as much of the mass of dinoflagellates as possible. Daily removal would be preferable to keep populations at a reduced level.




How to Treat Problem Dinoflagellates: Elevated pH
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In order to treat problem dinoflagellates with elevated pH, I'd recommend keeping the pH at 8.4 to 8.5 until they are gone. The pH can be as high as 8.6 without causing too much stress on anything else. The process may take weeks. In desperation (i.e. if nothing else works), allow the pH to go even higher.

pH is best raised by adding calcium hydroxide, either as limewater (kalkwasser; calcium hydroxide or "lime" dissolved in freshwater), or as a lime slurry. Bear in mind that aeration will tend to lower the pH, so if maintaining high pH is difficult, reducing aeration may help a bit. pH naturally drops at night, so be sure to measure pH in the early morning as well as later in the day.

As a general guideline, adding the equivalent of 1.25% of the tank's volume in saturated limewater will raise the pH by about 0.66 pH units. That increase may be more than desired all at once, but that volume, or more, spread out over the course of a day may be necessary to maintain high pH.

If you are limited by low evaporation and cannot add enough limewater, use a slurry of lime. For example, 1-2 level teaspoons of calcium hydroxide can be made into a slurry by mixing with one cup of RO/DI (reverse osmosis/deionized) water (not tank water). Stir it up and dump it into a high flow area away from delicate organisms. Adding one level teaspoon of solid lime this way into a 100-gallon aquarium will raise its pH by about 0.3 pH units. This process may need to be repeated several times a day to keep the pH high.

Don't worry about raising calcium or alkalinity with this method. The higher pH will accelerate calcification by organisms and abiotic precipitation. Beware that you may eventually clog pumps, impellers and intakes this way, and you might get white precipitates on surfaces (that is usually okay for a short term treatment and does not usually harm corals).
 
What I can honestly say for sure about dinos is this, they make you upset, confused, and fed up.

No waterchanges period. Clean out your sump if it's filthy. Top off with "cleanest water you can find!"
My ro water has minerals in it and probably trace elements that fueled the Dino even more. I ended up going to a water store with an 8 stage monster filtration system.

I would not dose anything carbon related, vinegar or vodka. Gfo helps new gac helps.

Check recent threads.
 
What I can honestly say for sure about dinos is this, they make you upset, confused, and fed up.

No waterchanges period. Clean out your sump if it's filthy. Top off with "cleanest water you can find!"
My ro water has minerals in it and probably trace elements that fueled the Dino even more. I ended up going to a water store with an 8 stage monster filtration system.

I would not dose anything carbon related, vinegar or vodka. Gfo helps new gac helps.

Check recent threads.

why would you not dose anything carbon related??
 
I just came out of a 3 day period of complete darkness (I taped cardboard around the entire tank and top).

The dino's were laughing at me when I removed it last night... Still there, still strong...
 
To answer simply Miguel. I believe my Dinos came from pulling beneficial and bad bacteria from my tank too fast. I noticed that when I dosed vinegar the dinos stuck around. When I didn't dose and didn't do wc they would recede and almost not be present.

Along with this I added a shorter or no photoperiod. I have mostly sps and they showed no ill effect maybe a bit less color, but hardly noticeable if your not obsessive like me....(aren't we all?)

The week things got really clean was the addition of the bio magnet and blowing off the stuff with a moveable powerhead. I also added a double dose of GAC and a 1.5x than normal addition of GFO in the reactors.
The filter sock was changed daily, with out fail. I left the skimmer off to let the good bacteria come back and to let the system settle.

The history 3 weeks ago: I nuked the bacteria or whatever balance there was in my system by adding a gfo and gac reactor on the same day. I would only use mesh sacks before this "wise idea."

(I went from .25 phosphates to 0 in 5 days via els and salifert tests multiple times though out the week, 35 nitrates to 2 in 7 days via api and salifert tests.)

This was way too fast for my system to handle and on a Saturday morning a white cloud (probably some sort of bloom) was inside the tank for about 6 hours.

I am not recommending at all what I have done, in any way. Just sharing my experiences, with all that are going through this. I read at least 7-8 hours of threads and articles on the subject in recent weeks. I tried the higher PH but failed, mine would not go higher than 8.1 in recent weeks.

A lot of things that were said in what I read did not work in my case, like to do wc only made it worse. I believe the trace elements would cause the bacteria to grow. Also could be related to the RO water I was using I cannot be 100% sure. I guess the main thing is to not go crazy adding a bunch of variables that way you know what worked and what does not.

GL all.
 
Mine started when I began running BRS GFO in a new reactor. I went lights out for 4 days and kept running GFO and GAC. No water changes for 2 weeks. They are now gone.
 
Thanks for sharing your experiences wickedfish. My problem may be messing around with it too much. I thought doing a lot of water changes would help, but it didn't. My problem is relatively small right now, but I am keeping it at bay by siphoning the few patches every 1-2 days.

For me, my major environmental change was going from T5's to 175w halide. That may have been the trigger. Also one powerhead out of two was off for about 1.5 weeks. My RBTA split a few weeks before, and one decided to wander and rest right ON the power head. He liked it there. I wanted him to find his happy place on his own. Eventually I just moved him and apparently I picked the right spot. Both powerheads are on now.

-I reduced feedings substantially. I don't like doing this. My sandsifter star prob hasn't been getting enough nutrients. He had a few eroded legs that are slowly healing.
-I cleaned the skimmer pump as it was dirty and not working as efficiently.
-Stopped adding extra vitamins/additives to the water.. other than magnesium, calcium, and alk.
-Trying to maintain a stable alk between 8.1 and 8.2. Been successful.
-I use GFO/Carbon in a sock in the sump. I may try increasing the amount by 25% or more over a period of time.
-I need to reduce the photoperiod.. my current work schedule makes it tough to adjust it any more. I feed once in the morning and once when I get home in the evening. With my schedule that effectively means feed right after lights on. Feed just before lights out.

I read somewhere that vodka dosing can help, but honestly I don't want to deal with that. I'd rather minimize the additives and dosing. No need for 'something else' and be required to stick to it for the long term.

For the lighting. I may reduce the halides to like 4-5 hours a day. Then leave some LED lights I have on for the rest. The LED's don't produce any notable PAR for photosynthetic critters. Its more of an aesthetics light.
 
these are all great ideas... but... the tank i have the dinos in doesnt have a sump. my skimmer is a HOB octopus, how should i dose the GFO? would it work if i just use a regular filter sock? or do i need to get a reactor? since its the holiday season my wallet is a little thin so id like to spend the least amount that i can lol but im not willing to compromise the health of my fish and inverts, as thats the only thing i have in there right now. i took the coral out and put them in another tank.
 
Unfortunately gfo is on the expensive side and especially if not maximized. You should look into a reactor that you can drill to the wall and then put the pump inside (won't look pretty) and then the return line also. I would also add a baby sock to the output as they have a tendency to release fines into your dt.
Funny, I have read at least 6 people who used the Brs stuff and got dinos soon after. Not blaming Brs. As the gfo and gac they sell are not dinoflagelettes. I just find it completely puzzling that in other threads alot of folks did what I did and then voila the bloom of dino's.

Might be something a bio chemist could explain? Boomer or Cliff would probably know why the dino's came after the addition of gfo and gac from Brs?
 
A filter sock would be okay, if the flow level was right. A PhosBan reactor, or a similar product, likely would be the most efficient way to go. You could consider some of the bio-pellets (solid carbon) in a reactor, as well. It might be a bit safer and easier than liquid carbon (vodka, etc).
 
Jonathan,

I found that adding any type of dosed carbon, added to the dino outbreak. I ceased the addition of it and 2 weeks later i have no signs besides a few millimeter strings that are partially white, knowing last week the same strands were bright reddish brown.

To everyone else, these are my experiences with this pest:

I know in no way did I completely defeat this. I know as soon as I have a few days of long photoperiods and a WC they may resurface.

I think its a balance of nature and chemistry. Also you must have a "clean strategy."

Be it, changing to pure RO water from a different source other than what you or the person in question was using previously, or cleaning the filter socks excessively, changing the carbon granules every 3 days, gfo every 4 to 5 days, and cleaning the actual bacteria out manually.

Although this (siphoning the pest) proves to be difficult without topping off with new SW. Which usually causes a resurgence of the beasties. (I have literally watched my display after a WC go into a dino explosion in front of my eyes.)

I tried this with some success:

I would use my tightest knit socks as a catching device and use a powerhead to blow off the strings to my overflow. I would see the strings in the sock by illuminating it with my fuge light. Once my sock was pretty nasty about 2 hours after doing the steps above I would change the sock, give it a vinegar RO bath overnight and then high pressure wash it and rinse in RO.

What I did the last 10 days before the dinos 99% went away:

I added this stuff we got at RAP for free, Bio Magnet Clarifier Nightly.

I changed the filter sock daily or 2 times a day when I did the lazy man cleaning I mentioned above.

1 day light for 4-6 hours, 2 days off, and fuge lights off most of the week ( had them on for like 24 hours in a week.)

Fresh gfo and gac in a reactor every 3 days. NO WC topped off with KALKWRASSER.

Agitated the surface water not the mid section as I usually do, to not keep the DINOS in the rock/coral area.

Fed every other day, stars were crazy active, snails very active, hermits got eaten by my wrasse cause he was probably hungry, and my other fish started to eat the dinos, especially the yellow tang.

The 3 days before I saw no dinos at all, I had no lights for 38 hours continued the bio magnet clarifier and I added MB7 in the properly measured cap fulls according to my water volume, ( I had it in my fish closet and i was antsy to use it, the stuff clears your water like nothing else.) Did it help??? Who knows??? But I can say fifty something hours later no signs of the dinos at all.

Mind you skimmer was off this entire last week.

These are my experiences I don't claim I found a cure or anything like that. But I am happy that my system has adapted to my mistakes from the past and has found a better balance of bacteria and chemistry.
 
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gfo is not good for removing nitrates. I use pura complete and takes it away in a week or so do no water changes during the time good luck
 
I will do a search on pura complete to see whats in it. I am currently using the pura-nitrate lock form the same company as the stuff you mention in my sump. Don't know if it worked or not but I may try the pura-complete. But it seems to be a mix of both of their other products.

My nitrate level for the past 3 weeks is 2 on a salifert test some days 0. Phosphates are my issue always at .003, it's always present or my chaetto wouldn't always be so lush.

Today I changed out my media's and I have no trace of any Dino's what so ever. No bubbles of oxygen and no red strings and no growth of fuzzes on the sands.
 
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i will also look into pura complete. i rather do that than drill holes in my wall and stuff lol dont get me wrong, its damn good advice IMO, but if i can save a lil green with pura complete i rather go that route. anyone else have experience with pura complete?? or esteban, have your results been positive with the nitrate lock?? also, where can i find this product? would it have to be online? TIA
:)
 
Pura Nitrate Lock seems to be a resin, and they don't work in saltwater for adsorbing nitrate. Check the regeneration step: soak in a salt solution...
 
pura complete is not a resin that fish place sells it it works well for removiving organic matter phosphate and silica to each there own but i used it on a bad dino problem within a week it was gone go figure
 
Well if it works in a week and its under 25$ it's worth it. What else was going on troyman when you added this to your system? Gfo, gac? Any other additives?

Why did your tank have the bloom in the first place?
 
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