Help Loosing SPS, acros, montis, birdsnest, no pests, why?

O

Oldtimer

New member
240 gal Display in wall mounted
450 gal Total System

All water comes from a BRS 6 Stage Chloramines RO/DI system with TDS always reading zero after the second DI canister.

Filtration:
* Bubble King 300 Deluxe External gravity fed directly by display tank overflow
* Fluidized reactor occasionally used for GAC and/or GFO
* Filter socks in sump - cleaned weekly with vinegar/water in washing machine. Socks are replaced every few months.
* Filter sponge as pre-filter to sump return pump inlet - cleaned monthly with vinegar/water
* 150 lbs+ Live Rock within system
* 40 gal Refugium
* 35 gal Frag Tank
* 65 gal cryptic/live rock holding tank
* 50 gal coral growout/holding tank
* Twin sump setup

Circulation:
* Vortech MPW40 x 2 in DT
* Tunze 6105 x 1 in DT
* Tunze Wavebox x 1 in DT (just purchased a second but not yet installed)
* Dart Gold (Sump return and feed to frag tank & fuge)
* Twin Maxijet streams (in 50 gal coral growout tank)
* Maxijet stream in DT

Lighting:
* 2x 250W Reeflux 12K MH's + 1x 400W Radium 20K MH "“ 5/6hr photoperiod (have had up to 7-8 hours in the past)
* 2x 80W T5's (Dimmable for sunrise/sunset) - 11 hr photoperiod
* T5's on fuge and frag tank (frag tank currently empty so lights off)
* 2x 36" VHO and 1x 250W Reeflux 12K MH on separate 50 g tank connected to system with similar photoperiod as DT

Heating/Cooling:
* 400W heater in sump and dual fans over tank controlled via Profilux.
* All tanks are housed in a dedicated fish room (In wall display).
* Fish room has its own ventilation and A/C system.
* A/C system maintains room at ~22C all year round
* Ventilation fan switches on every 1.5-3 hours for 30 min (depending on time of day) to exchange air with outdoors
* Tank Temperature maintained between 25.9 C (78.6 F) and 26.4 C (79.5 F) during day.
* Tank Temperature maintained between 25.4 C(77.7 F) and 25.9 C (78.6 F) during night.

Control/Supplementation/Feeding:
* Profilux II Plus EX system with ORP, pH, Temp, Salinity Control
* Profilux 4 channel dosing unit for top off (trigged by Conductivity probe) and Balling Salts (Alk, Ca and Mg)

Timeline Since Dec 2012:

"¢ Cleaned/restarted system Dec 2012 after removing sand beds in display and fuge since thought this was feeding nuisance algae/cyano in the system
"¢ System was running very well and clean for the first couple months then started to notice dinos on the rocks and bare bottom of display tank
"¢ Threw some GFO (far less than recommend for my water volume) in reactor at this point
"¢ Changed GFO a month later ~ March 2013
"¢ Water changes were taking place every ~2 weeks since the system was started in Dec 2012
"¢ Changed out halide bulbs mid-March 2013 (same as before = 2x 250W Reeflux and 1x 400W Radium)
"¢ Noticed dinos started taking over rock work significantly in early April 2013 so added Alk portion of 2 part in order to increase pH per this article http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/
"¢ Changed GFO and added GAC mid-April while manually removing dinos with toothbrush and siphoning into filter sock in sump which was promptly removed and washed. Also started dripping Kalk over night to try to increase pH. Note my tank typically runs 7.9-8.0 pH and it is difficult to increase it much higher. Kalk drip would slowly increase pH to ~8.2-8.3 for a few/several hours and then it would creep back down to 7.9-8.0
"¢ A couple weeks later (early May), first noticed monti cap losing color and then started noticing acros losing color. Within a couple more weeks, some acros bleached and TN'd. Lost a really nice pink sand dollar monti colony over a few days. Lost a few acro mini colonies as well. Pink birdsnest has also lost coloration. Just spotted tissue loss on a digi. Tissue loss usually occurs after significant color loss (although not so with the digi which still has normal color) and does not follow any specific pattern "“ some start losing tissue from base up and others lose a branch first and then it moves to other branches, others lose tissue in random places and then it spreads eventually taking over entire colony.

Parameters and general state of tank:
"¢ pH= 7.7-8.0 (Profilux)****NOTE: Seeing 7.7-7.8 on Profilux, but just hooked up new Seneye and seeing 8.5-8.6. Also seeing 8.5 on handheld meter.
"¢ Alk= 8.5-9.2 (Salifert)
"¢ Ca= 420-460 (Salifert)
"¢ Mg= always >1500 (Salifert)
"¢ P04 = 0.01 to 0.03 per Hanna ULR meter (measures phosphorus but I am reporting the converted P04 values)
"¢ Ammonia and Nitrate are 0 (Tropic Marin)
"¢ Cannot grow and hardly maintain macroalgae within fuge
"¢ Coralline is present on underside of live rock or very bottom of glass only. Will not grow in open lit areas
"¢ LPS (mainly acans) are healthy and thriving
"¢ Zoos are healthy and although not growing like crazy, they look nice
"¢ Fish (Sailfin Tang, 5 Anthias, 3 blue/green chromis, 2 clowns, mandarin goby and chalk basslet) are all healthy
"¢ Feed tank once/day (1 frozen cube of either Mysis shrimp or spirulina brine shrimp plus 1 dime size chunk of Rod's Reef food)

Thoughts:
"¢ Am I running the tank so clean that I'm starving the corals?
"¢ In general, coral growth has always been slow in this system which would indicate starvation, but I'm not sold this is the issue
"¢ Could the dinos be sucking up nutrients that the corals otherwise need?
"¢ I did start adding some Brightwell liquid phytoplankton every couple days over the last week and a half or so
"¢ My concern is that adding too much food to the system just feeds the dinos more so I'm still being cautious to add anything
"¢ Am I low on Iodine? An article online suggested that low Iodine could explain the tissue loss.
"¢ I've been doing weekly 40g water changes for the last few weeks in an effort to bring life back to the corals
"¢ I doubt there is a contaminant issue as the only source of anything besides the Coral Pro Salt and RO/DI water is the daily feeding
"¢ I have not added any new fish for several months and corals for a few months
"¢ There are no pests present (Red bugs, nudis, AEFW), and wouldn't explain the birdsnest (which was previously thriving)
"¢ I have not moved any corals since I initially placed them
"¢ I regularly clean pumps in vinegar so that they are working at max efficiency and so that deposits don't jam them up
"¢ Per pH note above, I just noticed that my pH may in fact been 0.7-0.9 higher than reported via Profilux so now wondering if Alk drip actually increased pH to 9-9.2ish. I was seeing excessive lime deposits on glass and pumps required more frequent "œde-liming" when dosing. Perhaps a clean system coupled with strong lighting and high pH are stressing the SPS out. I reduced dosing on the 2 part by about 20% as of yesterday in hopes that it will gradually reduce the pH down to the 8.2-8.4 range per Seneye and handheld meters. Also planning to do another water change in a couple days (just did one yesterday). Appreciate any helpful input.

Will get some example pics up soon.
 
Note tissue loss on base on the acro in the middle...excuse the quality. Snapped this with my iPhone in a camera box after the halides switched off.

6r6z.jpg
 
SPS Success

SPS Success

Morning - fellow Michigander here with 320 SPS tank. I can help trouble shoot your issue and share my opinions. Are you running carbon? Are you carbon dosing? Biopellets or Vodka etc?

Are you sure they are dinos - pictures?

What is your feeding regimen.
 
Hey, nice to see a local guy in here. As for feeding, only once a day (1 frozen cube of either Mysis shrimp or spirulina brine shrimp plus 1 dime size chunk of Rod’s Reef food). As of the last couple weeks, I've been adding a squirt or two of Brightwell zooplanktos L every other day on average.

Dinos - I believe so, but would not consider myself an expert on ID. I just siphoned them off as much as possible yesterday so little to show at the moment. They are generally light brown sort of like a wheat beer in color. They will form the characteristic snot like formation and offgas. They will fly off in numbers if I disturb them so I use a toothbrush and siphon them into a filter sock. I also believe they are dino's because nearly all my snails bit the dust and I understand that they are toxic to snails.

No carbon dosing at all. Never have. I think my skimmer does a great job of keeping the water clean and have always seen very low nutrient levels. I only ocassionally use GAC or GFO but always much less than recommended for my water volume. Last time I used it was as mentioned above (mid April).
 
Yeah, I'm aware of the w/c feeding the dinos which is why I've been spending an hour plus per week with a toothbrush and spihoning them into a filter sock. I've been doing the water changes because it seems to perk the SPS up and frankly nothing else has seemed to help... although I just discovered the Profilux pH inaccuracy. I do have another Alk kit so I'll try that as well.
 
Both Alk kits are saying 9.6-9.9 so bit higher than what I typically see. Last time I checked it was a couple weeks ago and was in the low 9's.
 
Hi Oldtimer.

While I can't tell you what process is happening with your system, I can offer my opinion on the matter. You know that saying about going with your first gut reaction? Mine is the same as yours. For better coral health and coloration, my most productive move has been to feed its animals more. You say you have a workhorse skimmer? I would feel even better about it.

Just tossing the numbers around in my head...you have a 450 gal system and you feed basically 2 frozen food cubes a day. I average over that in my 150gal system. My H. Phosphate Checker numbers can move around a bit. Just my opinion, but I wouldn't worry about the numbers so much as how the corals look themselves. Right??

Another issue you brought up was the more recent attempt to dose kalkwasser to bring up pH. Are you still dosing kalk? IME, I was sitting with the same pH "issue" as you, ever pleased to get even close to 8 pH. I tried to dose kalk to bring it up and felt I had a decent schedule that would get pH up to and over 8 occasionally. It would still sit down low however, and as you are now seeing...this can add a much larger swing to your pH. Just my experience. You very well may have had success with adding Kalk before.

As far as algae goes, I have had various algaes spring up out of seemingly nowhere. You have the right idea. Manual removal and should you feel up to it, a little bit of GFO. That's how I've fought it. I've even chiseled algae off of rock. Get it out :)

Lastly, we all know alkalinity fluctuations can deter coral growth and thus negatively affect coral color. It really is a big deal. I'm a long time Salifert user myself. It sounds like you are on top of your uptake, but always good to double check if possible. Perhaps the half dKH point increase messed with your corals. Despite your discovery of a slightly raised alkalinity test, I think you can get that controlled quickly.

Ok. I'll stop rambling. I understand you removed the bed in December. Did you have the SPS in the system before the removal of said sand bed? How were they doing? Also, how old is the entire system?
 
sanchoy said:
Doesn't hurt to run carbon and do a wc. In case some foreign contamination occurred
Click to expand...

Thanks... I did run GAC around the time that the SPS started regressing and I'm fearful that running it again will strip nutrients out of the water that they may need. I am planning another 40 g w/c today and then another on the weekend. I can't imagine how the system would have any foreign contamination since my kids cannot get into it and there is nothing else entering it other than RO/DI water which is solid, salt and the food I mentioned above.
 
blakers82 said:
Hi Oldtimer.

While I can't tell you what process is happening with your system, I can offer my opinion on the matter. You know that saying about going with your first gut reaction? Mine is the same as yours. For better coral health and coloration, my most productive move has been to feed its animals more. You say you have a workhorse skimmer? I would feel even better about it.

Just tossing the numbers around in my head...you have a 450 gal system and you feed basically 2 frozen food cubes a day. I average over that in my 150gal system. My H. Phosphate Checker numbers can move around a bit. Just my opinion, but I wouldn't worry about the numbers so much as how the corals look themselves. Right??
Click to expand...

True. But I'm also trying to prevent feeding any dino's/nuisance algae. I suppose I can up the Rod's food amount for a while to see if any impact.
 
blakers82 said:
Hi Oldtimer.

Another issue you brought up was the more recent attempt to dose kalkwasser to bring up pH. Are you still dosing kalk? IME, I was sitting with the same pH "issue" as you, ever pleased to get even close to 8 pH. I tried to dose kalk to bring it up and felt I had a decent schedule that would get pH up to and over 8 occasionally. It would still sit down low however, and as you are now seeing...this can add a much larger swing to your pH. Just my experience. You very well may have had success with adding Kalk before.
Click to expand...

Yes, I now suspect that my pH was higher all along based on recent discovery from Seneye and handheld meter as mentioned above. The reason why I tried to raise it with Kalk (which I only dripped for maybe 10 days or so) was to try to rid the dino's per a Reefkeeping article I read. So now I think it may have been what starting killing the SPS.
 
blakers82 said:
Hi Oldtimer.

Lastly, we all know alkalinity fluctuations can deter coral growth and thus negatively affect coral color. It really is a big deal. I'm a long time Salifert user myself. It sounds like you are on top of your uptake, but always good to double check if possible. Perhaps the half dKH point increase messed with your corals. Despite your discovery of a slightly raised alkalinity test, I think you can get that controlled quickly.

Ok. I'll stop rambling. I understand you removed the bed in December. Did you have the SPS in the system before the removal of said sand bed? How were they doing? Also, how old is the entire system?
Click to expand...

Thanks. I think the increase in dKH maybe a result of the SPS dying and growth stopping? because my dosing is rock solid with the Profilux pumps. I.e., they are no longer uptaking what I have been dosing. I will double check what the pumps are actually outputting vs programmed to output, but the usage rate seems right based on how often I am refilling the containers of 2 part solution.

As for sand bed, I had poor growth before and I was seeing excessive algae and cyano so I decided to pull the sand bed. I moved the live rock, coral and fish to a stock tank while I cleaned the system and refilled the system with 25-30% old system water and remainder freshly made water. Prior to removing the sand bed it was up and running since March 2010.
 
OK, here is my 2 cents. Its an opinion based on my experience and is just an opinion.


zero nitrates and alk anywhere near or over 9 would cause RTN in my tank.

When my nitrates were zero I could not grow monti's. They would bleach and die. Most SPS bleached in my tank within a month of adding them. So I bought an auto feeder and set it for 5 times a day and gave a good squirt of prepared food. Once my nitrates got measurable, all my bleaching and RTN problems went away....

I looked at every TOTM and half of them have nitrates between 2-5 and the others read undetectable. I set up a frag system and with it being new and having zero nitrates, everything I put in bleaches except Green Birdsnest and Purple Stylo. Those do well in both my tanks regardless of nitrate levels.


So if it were me I would feed heavy...


However I would wait until I got rid on my dino but then again, the treatment is bacteria based and should take care of any excess nutrients... I licked it in a month by doing the following:

Daily sock changes
Activated Carbon 24/7
Manual daily cleaning with a turkey baster.
3 days of black out
Using zeovit Coral snow with some MB7 or Zeobak in it every night.

It worked like a charm
 
Great read sorry for uour losses butbim currently dealing with the same issue of mysterious tissue loss so please ipdate. No dinos here though
 
Thanks. Sounds very similar to what I'm seeing. Pocillopora is the exception in my system as it grows no matter what. Interested to know what auto feeder you went with.

I did research some of the lights out methods for attacking the dinos and found mixed reviews, but had not heard of using Coral snow and Zeobak in conjunction... I happen to have both products on hand already. I used them once to try and fight cyano before I removed the sandbed and restarted the system this past Dec... I did not have success but perhaps the sandbed was the issue. Anyway, it's worth a shot so I might just try your approach.
 
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