trueblackpercula
New member
With the size of that tank I would target feed them with sps food and see if things get better.
Help Loosing SPS, acros, montis, birdsnest, no pests, why?
- Thread starter Oldtimer
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With the size of that tank I would target feed them with sps food and see if things get better.
tdb320reef
Active member
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Sorry I was out dealing with an heating can cooling issue. Ended up with a new central air unit and now a delta star 1/3 HP.
Here is what I would do.
1. Stick with Kalk because you will need it when these sps grow out especially if you get packed like my tank.
2. Lower your alk gradually and target 8, procure reliable alk tester like Hanna and test frequently looking for swings. My corals consume almost 1dkh from lights off to peak light about 5PM as a result to minimize the swing I delay my Kalk dosing until about noon to offset the natural swing. Not that you have this issue but the point is to measure the daily swing and minimize it if needed.
3. Get yourself a big bottle of OysterFeast feed 4 tsp every other day. I have about 400G volume and I am doing 6 tsp every other day but have big hungry corals. Perhaps start with 2 tsp then ramp up as needed.
4. Some people do some don't but I like to use a mixture of Cyclopseze, reef chilli and coral frenzy. Set your tank with a feed mode that keeps the food in the tank for a half to an hour.
5. As you increase your feeding monitor nitrates and phosphates.
6. Edit, BTW. Make sure you are dipping your new additions or anything you suspect pests. Research Bayer Advanced pesticide.
7. Other than the ALK change don't make another changes for 30 days.
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Sorry I was out dealing with an heating can cooling issue. Ended up with a new central air unit and now a delta star 1/3 HP.
Here is what I would do.
1. Stick with Kalk because you will need it when these sps grow out especially if you get packed like my tank.
2. Lower your alk gradually and target 8, procure reliable alk tester like Hanna and test frequently looking for swings. My corals consume almost 1dkh from lights off to peak light about 5PM as a result to minimize the swing I delay my Kalk dosing until about noon to offset the natural swing. Not that you have this issue but the point is to measure the daily swing and minimize it if needed.
3. Get yourself a big bottle of OysterFeast feed 4 tsp every other day. I have about 400G volume and I am doing 6 tsp every other day but have big hungry corals. Perhaps start with 2 tsp then ramp up as needed.
4. Some people do some don't but I like to use a mixture of Cyclopseze, reef chilli and coral frenzy. Set your tank with a feed mode that keeps the food in the tank for a half to an hour.
5. As you increase your feeding monitor nitrates and phosphates.
6. Edit, BTW. Make sure you are dipping your new additions or anything you suspect pests. Research Bayer Advanced pesticide.
7. Other than the ALK change don't make another changes for 30 days.
Last edited:
dkeller_nc
New member
Couple of thoughts:
High alkalinity relative to NSW, high intensity lighting and very low nutrients has been anecdotally linked to RTN and STN. If it were my system, I would gradually bring the alkalinity, calcium and magnesium more in line with ocean values.
In my case, I accidentally bleached a superb aussie deep water acro by not paying attention and running the alkalinity into the 10 dkH range and the magnesium concentration into the 1800 range. Catching the problem and slowly ramping back down to about 7.5 dkH, Ca about 400 ppm and Mag to 1400 ppm or so seems to be helping, this colony might actually survive.
A couple of your pictures that have small patches of RTN look suspiciously like LPS coral aggression. In my case, I had a small chalice frag 3" away from another deep water acro and a orange monti digi, thinking that was plenty of separation. The corals stayed in this position for several months, and all three were growing nicely. One day I noted patches of tissue loss on the acro and the monti. That night, I examined the tank by flashlight and found that the chalice was putting out 4" long sweeper tentacles. Even though I moved the chalice immediately, the acro developed RTN and died over about a 2 day period. The monti survived and has largely healed after about a 4 week period.
Regarding feeding - a lot of us use live phytoplankton, and quite a lot of it, to feed our SPS corals. I do this nightly, at a rate of about one teaspoon of Reed Mariculture's phytofeast live per 50 gallons of water volume. It's just enough to slightly (and I do mean slightly) cloud the water. I supplement this with oyster feast about 3 times a week, at about 1/2 the dosage of the phytofeast. I also turn my skimmer off for one hour after dosing the phyto/oyster feast. Once the skimmer is back on, any remaining cloudiness clears in about 30 minutes. Note that I do this after lights out - it made more sense to me to feed the corals at night when polyps are more fully extended.
A note about dinos/cyano. I've personally found nearly immediate success in battling these pests by altering the spectrum of the light over the tank to remove red components. This is quite easy with my system that has LEDs, I just turn down the red emitters. With my fluorescently-lit reef, I changed one of two combo cool white/460nm PC bulb to a dual 460s. This system had both cyano and GHA. Both vanished within a week of changing out the lighting. You might be able to experiment with your system by putting a piece of translucent blue acrylic between your MH bulb and the reef, which will filter out the red spectrum from the bulb.
High alkalinity relative to NSW, high intensity lighting and very low nutrients has been anecdotally linked to RTN and STN. If it were my system, I would gradually bring the alkalinity, calcium and magnesium more in line with ocean values.
In my case, I accidentally bleached a superb aussie deep water acro by not paying attention and running the alkalinity into the 10 dkH range and the magnesium concentration into the 1800 range. Catching the problem and slowly ramping back down to about 7.5 dkH, Ca about 400 ppm and Mag to 1400 ppm or so seems to be helping, this colony might actually survive.
A couple of your pictures that have small patches of RTN look suspiciously like LPS coral aggression. In my case, I had a small chalice frag 3" away from another deep water acro and a orange monti digi, thinking that was plenty of separation. The corals stayed in this position for several months, and all three were growing nicely. One day I noted patches of tissue loss on the acro and the monti. That night, I examined the tank by flashlight and found that the chalice was putting out 4" long sweeper tentacles. Even though I moved the chalice immediately, the acro developed RTN and died over about a 2 day period. The monti survived and has largely healed after about a 4 week period.
Regarding feeding - a lot of us use live phytoplankton, and quite a lot of it, to feed our SPS corals. I do this nightly, at a rate of about one teaspoon of Reed Mariculture's phytofeast live per 50 gallons of water volume. It's just enough to slightly (and I do mean slightly) cloud the water. I supplement this with oyster feast about 3 times a week, at about 1/2 the dosage of the phytofeast. I also turn my skimmer off for one hour after dosing the phyto/oyster feast. Once the skimmer is back on, any remaining cloudiness clears in about 30 minutes. Note that I do this after lights out - it made more sense to me to feed the corals at night when polyps are more fully extended.
A note about dinos/cyano. I've personally found nearly immediate success in battling these pests by altering the spectrum of the light over the tank to remove red components. This is quite easy with my system that has LEDs, I just turn down the red emitters. With my fluorescently-lit reef, I changed one of two combo cool white/460nm PC bulb to a dual 460s. This system had both cyano and GHA. Both vanished within a week of changing out the lighting. You might be able to experiment with your system by putting a piece of translucent blue acrylic between your MH bulb and the reef, which will filter out the red spectrum from the bulb.
tdb320reef
Active member
I agree with moving to NSW levels with ULNS and Light intensity in correlation with nutrients but stonys don't dominantly feed on phyto:
Quote:
There has been much debate about how selective corals are about their diets, especially regarding phyto- and zooplankton. Various studies show that stony corals predominantly feed on zooplankton, and that soft corals are mostly herbivores.
http://www.coralscience.org/main/articles/nutrition-6/how-corals-feed
Thanks for all the feedback. I started target feeding Coral Frenzy today. Taking the target feeding approach makes me feel a bit better about not feeding the nuisance organisms even though it's still not perfect.
I cut the dose rate on the 2 part back twice now over the last few days. It's down to 2/3 the rate that I had been running for months. I will add that my Mg is always high. I say >1500 but it generally shows as closer to 1600-1700. I even experimented with turning off the Mg dosing pump in the past for weeks only to see it creep down to 1500 or so. I have verified this will multiple test kits as well...never understood this about my system.
Alk is now showing 9.6dKH and pH is still 8.5 per Hanna handheld meter and 8.6 per Seneye... so not much change yet but it's only been a few days since I initially cut the dose rate. A couple acros are hanging on the ragged edge of turning for the worst but have seemed to hold their place over the last few days so we'll see how they progress... really hoping that the feeding and water changes will help stabilize them.
I cut the dose rate on the 2 part back twice now over the last few days. It's down to 2/3 the rate that I had been running for months. I will add that my Mg is always high. I say >1500 but it generally shows as closer to 1600-1700. I even experimented with turning off the Mg dosing pump in the past for weeks only to see it creep down to 1500 or so. I have verified this will multiple test kits as well...never understood this about my system.
Alk is now showing 9.6dKH and pH is still 8.5 per Hanna handheld meter and 8.6 per Seneye... so not much change yet but it's only been a few days since I initially cut the dose rate. A couple acros are hanging on the ragged edge of turning for the worst but have seemed to hold their place over the last few days so we'll see how they progress... really hoping that the feeding and water changes will help stabilize them.
I'm with you on lowering the Alk/Mg and increasing the feeding. No chance of sweeper tentacles affecting the SPS in the pictures. I do have a few chalices, but they are at least a foot away from any SPS.
Lighting suggestion in regards to dinos/cyano sounds very interesting. Would love to learn more about this.
Must have A/C in this weather!
Thanks for feedback.
1. Do you prefer Kalk over 2 part? Personally I find that 2 part is easy to control with a dosing pump and requires less mixing of solution. I only used Kalk when I tried to increase the pH. I ran it through an old Kalk reactor and dripped it slowly overnight.
2. I may invest in a Hanna, but the Salifert kit is quick and easy too. pH and Alk should follow each other from what I understand so if Alk swings so should pH, right? The Seneye is a nice little unit. It monitors swings in pH and emails me if there is any significant swing... in fact, I've been getting daily warnings that my pH is too high since I hooked it up!
3/4. In addition to the Brightwell Zooplanktos-L I just started the Coral Frenzy today. I am target feeding, but I do trigger the feed mode on the main return pump and the wavebox. I let the Vortechs and streams stay on, but it seems to work well and the corals have some good PE afterward. I only have feedmode at 5 min, but pretty sure I can up this on the Profilux at least for the return pump... perhaps Tunze can be adjusted too, just need to look into it.
5. For Sure.
6. Thanks for the tip. Just read up on it a bit and sounds great. I have used Interceptor and Revive in the past. In the past year I only buy from a few select people that I know have well established pest free systems and are as anal as I am to protect them from becoming infested.
7. And of course the increased feedings. Any thought about running GAC if I am increasing feedings or should I just let the skimmer do the work and watch N & P closely?
tdb320reef
Active member
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Perfect, but
1 I Use Kalk in a Kalk stirrer that is inline with my ATO. This is complimented with a Calcium Reactor.
3/4 I heard from another reefer that the brightwell stuff was not that good. Coral Frenzy will help but I believe it is not fine enough for the corals at large. Oysterfeast is 100% the way to go.
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Perfect, but
1 I Use Kalk in a Kalk stirrer that is inline with my ATO. This is complimented with a Calcium Reactor.
3/4 I heard from another reefer that the brightwell stuff was not that good. Coral Frenzy will help but I believe it is not fine enough for the corals at large. Oysterfeast is 100% the way to go.
I've heard mixed reviews about Brightwells products as well, but another reefer recommended the Zooplanktos-L some time ago so I gave it a shot. Until recently, I was rarely using it. So far the corals seem to like the Coral Frenzy. I tried Oysterfeast years ago, but didn't stick with it for no particular reason. I'll give it another shot.
dkeller_nc
New member
This is a personal opinion, but I would stay away from coral foods that are supplied as a liquid suspension that is listed as shelf-stable at room temperature. Organic things (like food) that are held at room temperature tend to undergo all kinds of chemical reactions that make them less desirable as food items. And that excludes the chance for bacterial contamination that may cause them to spoil.
That's why I feed my tanks exclusively with refrigerated or frozen products, nutritional loss and/or spoilage is much reduced at cold temperatures. There are lots of these kinds of foods that are readily available from the LFS or on-line ordering. My personal preference are Reef Nutrition products from Reed Mariculture, but there are plenty of other choices - one example is the "Reef Frenzy" line of foods from Larry's Reef Services that seems to be getting good reviews on the Reef Discussion forum:
http://www.larrysreefservices.com/
That's why I feed my tanks exclusively with refrigerated or frozen products, nutritional loss and/or spoilage is much reduced at cold temperatures. There are lots of these kinds of foods that are readily available from the LFS or on-line ordering. My personal preference are Reef Nutrition products from Reed Mariculture, but there are plenty of other choices - one example is the "Reef Frenzy" line of foods from Larry's Reef Services that seems to be getting good reviews on the Reef Discussion forum:
http://www.larrysreefservices.com/
Biggar
New member
Reef Chilli is how this company began. Its dried coral food and affordable
I also use frozen rotifer and cyclopeeze
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-reef-chili-coral-food.html
I also use frozen rotifer and cyclopeeze
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/brs-reef-chili-coral-food.html
Good points on the food. Thanks and noted... yes, reminds me of the bacon hanging on stands along the unrefrigerated aisles in your average grocery store. I prefer my foods as fresh as possible as well. In fact much of it comes straight from local farms, but that's getting off topic...
I'm almost out of the Zooplanktos-L so I don't intend to purchase another bottle.
Larry's Reef Food reminds me a lot of Rogger's Reef Food which I have used, but since my LFS stocks the Rod's, I buy it over the Roggers. I think the Rod's food is pretty good too.
As for BRS, funny as I feel I should own stock in that company by now, but of all the items I've purchased through them I have never tried Reef Chilli.
I'm almost out of the Zooplanktos-L so I don't intend to purchase another bottle.
Larry's Reef Food reminds me a lot of Rogger's Reef Food which I have used, but since my LFS stocks the Rod's, I buy it over the Roggers. I think the Rod's food is pretty good too.
As for BRS, funny as I feel I should own stock in that company by now, but of all the items I've purchased through them I have never tried Reef Chilli.
dkeller_nc
New member
By the way, if you choose to do so, you can order Reef Nutrition products direct from the company, though an awful lot of LFS that specialize in saltwater/reef critters stock them.
I've never tried either Larry's or Rod's, but there's a thread on the reef discussion forum comparing the two from long-term users:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2266042&highlight=reef+frenzy
One other thought based on my relatively limited experience feeding phytoplankton - In addition to Reef Nutrition PhytoFeast Live, I ordered and tried some Phycopure (both the copepod blend and the reef blend). The Phycopure definitely stayed in suspension better in my copepod cultures, but I think that was because it was much, much less concentrated.
To compare, I put about a tenth of a milliliter of Phycopure and Reef Nutrition Phytofeast Live on a slide and put it under my microscope. I didn't do a cell count, but I would guess that RN PhytoFeast had approximately 40 to 50 times more algal cells per unit volume than Phycopure. I therefore decided to stick with RN - phycopure is just a bit too expensive for what one gets, in my opinion.
I've never tried either Larry's or Rod's, but there's a thread on the reef discussion forum comparing the two from long-term users:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2266042&highlight=reef+frenzy
One other thought based on my relatively limited experience feeding phytoplankton - In addition to Reef Nutrition PhytoFeast Live, I ordered and tried some Phycopure (both the copepod blend and the reef blend). The Phycopure definitely stayed in suspension better in my copepod cultures, but I think that was because it was much, much less concentrated.
To compare, I put about a tenth of a milliliter of Phycopure and Reef Nutrition Phytofeast Live on a slide and put it under my microscope. I didn't do a cell count, but I would guess that RN PhytoFeast had approximately 40 to 50 times more algal cells per unit volume than Phycopure. I therefore decided to stick with RN - phycopure is just a bit too expensive for what one gets, in my opinion.
blakers82
Member
tdb320reef - I'm definitely a Reef Nutrition fan. I'm also a big proponent of Oysterfeast! I still have some dries including Frenzy around, but I hardly use them. I also use RN Phytofeast microalgaes in my system.
Oldtimer - I have Rogger's reef food here too. I haven't eaten it yet, but am tempted every time I open it. It smells damn good! Oh, I also feel that 2 part has been the easiest. I've done kalk, cal RX plus kalk, 3 part plus kalk, etc. I stopped with the kalk and things have reacted better than any other combination I've used. I do liberally dump 2 part solution into my tank LOL, but I used kalk for the same reason you did...to bring pH up. I know reefers who must incorporate cal rx, 2 part, and kalk simultaneously to keep up with demand. Different for each setup, water capacity, corals. But for me and my corals, things settled down when I stopped fighting.
dkeller_nc - I haven't tried PhytoFeast Live yet. Do you think it is significantly more fresh than the regular product I use?
Oldtimer - I have Rogger's reef food here too. I haven't eaten it yet, but am tempted every time I open it. It smells damn good! Oh, I also feel that 2 part has been the easiest. I've done kalk, cal RX plus kalk, 3 part plus kalk, etc. I stopped with the kalk and things have reacted better than any other combination I've used. I do liberally dump 2 part solution into my tank LOL, but I used kalk for the same reason you did...to bring pH up. I know reefers who must incorporate cal rx, 2 part, and kalk simultaneously to keep up with demand. Different for each setup, water capacity, corals. But for me and my corals, things settled down when I stopped fighting.
dkeller_nc - I haven't tried PhytoFeast Live yet. Do you think it is significantly more fresh than the regular product I use?
dkeller_nc
New member
Well, I'm not sure - what do you use for phytoplankton? All I can say for PhytoFeast Live is that each bottle has an expiration date that is typically in the 1-3 month range from when I purchase it.
dkeller_nc
New member
Well, what Reed mariculture says is that PhytoFeast vs. PhytoFeast Live is that PF "regular" is packaged to ensure nutrient retention vs. cell viability, while PF Live is packaged to ensure viability instead of long-term nutrient retention. In my case, cell viability is important b/c I also use the product to feed copepod cultures, and live phytoplankton tends to stay in solution longer. However, if all I were doing with the product was feeding my reef tanks, I'd probably use PF "regular" because the skimmers on the tank will clear any cells, viable or not, within a few hours.
Update: I've been doing water changes (10%) at least once per week and as often as once every 3 days. I can easily make up ~50 gallons at a time hence 10%. I decided in my infinite wisdom, while feeding heavier portions along with the Coral Frenzy (~1/4 tsp or so per night), to turn my GAC/GFO reactor on for about 5 days. The SPS had been showing more PE and stopping any TN until after running the GAC/GFO. So, I'm convinced that the reactor (80% GAC and only 20% GFO) was stripping the water clean to the extent that it led to more TN and bleaching of the SPS. So either it's lack of nutrients or additional PAR caused by the clearer water that is leading to my SPS loss. It's been a week or so since I turned off the reactor and have since performed (3) 10% water changes and the SPS has stabilized although now looking worse of course than before running the reactor. Throughout the last few weeks, I have got Alk to stabilize around 8.7-9 and Ca has shot up into the upper 400's. pH (per the Hanna and Seneye) is showing 8.5-8.6. PO4 is low as usual, but measurable. I want things to stabilize a bit more before I decide to attack the dino's. For now a weekly thorough cleaning with toothbrush and scraper siphoned through a filter sock, although time consuming, is keeping them at bay. I do intend to do a lights out and coral snow/zeo bak treatment but would like to get at least one good 100g+ water change done before that. I'll probably do it in a couple weeks. Figure if this fails, I'll let it ride until the Fall when I can get some time to completely drain the system, hold all livestock in my 100g stock tank while I clean the system with vinegar and then start a fresh with all new live rock/mixed with some dry BRS base rock. Not cheap, but just can't keep up with the dino's weekly much longer as I can't afford the time to spend 2+ hours cleaning it every weekend.
