Help! Please! Cyano/dinos??

[Rodeo_Roger]

So I have this issue I have been battling for several months now and can't seem to win. Can't tell if its cyanobacteria or dinoflagellates. Sand is brown like dinos or diatoms but deeper in the sand and on the rocks is red like cyano. Every time I perform a red slime remover treatment it goes away and is all clear for a few weeks or so and starts coming back. After the recommended dosage and a couple days of battling my angry skimmer, I perform recommended dosing of FritzZyme460 as someone told me that they won their battle with the combo.
Tank info.
300 gal
35ppt salinity Fritz RPM salt
8.3 pH
420 calcium
8.8 dKH
0 phos with Hanna ULR
0 Nitrate
Running Carbon and GFO in reactors
Dosing Kalkwasser as top off water as a mixture of 30gal di water/36 tsp kalk/375ml vinegar to add carbon source and break down the kalk more which would be about 35ml of vinegar being added to the tank daily.
Pictures are of it now just starting to come back. I have had enough and never had this issue in the past.

 

[AlSimmons]

Check this out.

https://www.reefcleaners.org/nuisance-algae-id-guide

HTH.

 

[ramseynb]

It might be the vinegar. It doesn't look like cyano or dinos to me but it might be some sort of bacteria that's being fed by the carbon source.

 

[Rodeo_Roger]

Never had issues with vinegar dosing in the past. I'm using regular food grade white distilled vinegar. Should I do another red slime remover treatment and stop with the vinegar dosing?

It might be the vinegar. It doesn't look like cyano or dinos to me but it might be some sort of bacteria that's being fed by the carbon source.

 

[ramseynb]

Personally, I wouldn't use a red slime treatment. I've read too many stories of it nuking people's tank but YMMV. I would slowly reduce the amount of vinegar you're dosing and see if it clears up. You might also look into ZEOvit's Cyano Clean. I don't have any experience with it but apparently it's a bacterial strain that will outcompete cyano. Cyano is bacteria, when you dose vinegar, you're dosing a food source for bacteria. Cyano is a tough bacteria to outcompete.

That's what my theory is for what's happening in your tank but I could be wrong. The best advice is to not do anything quick or crazy. I've had bad cyano problems before and I know it can test the patience of any man.

EDIT: Also, in the ZEOvit guide, it mentions overdosing ZEOfood and/or ZEOstart (you can think of both like vinegar. They provide a carbon source for bacteria) and it causing diatom like bacterial growth. The recommendation is to slowly adjust the dosage until it goes away which is partially why I recommend what I do.

 

[Rodeo_Roger]

That makes sense. I have done a few red slime remover treatments with great results. No harm to any coral or fish. I will likely perform another treatment and cut my vinegar dosing in half and go from there. If it persists, I will reduce vinegar amount again later.

Personally, I wouldn't use a red slime treatment. I've read too many stories of it nuking people's tank but YMMV. I would slowly reduce the amount of vinegar you're dosing and see if it clears up. You might also look into ZEOvit's Cyano Clean. I don't have any experience with it but apparently it's a bacterial strain that will outcompete cyano. Cyano is bacteria, when you dose vinegar, you're dosing a food source for bacteria. Cyano is a tough bacteria to outcompete.

That's what my theory is for what's happening in your tank but I could be wrong. The best advice is to not do anything quick or crazy. I've had bad cyano problems before and I know it can test the patience of any man.

EDIT: Also, in the ZEOvit guide, it mentions overdosing ZEOfood and/or ZEOstart (you can think of both like vinegar. They provide a carbon source for bacteria) and it causing diatom like bacterial growth. The recommendation is to slowly adjust the dosage until it goes away which is partially why I recommend what I do.

 

[Crooked Reef]

If you’re truly at 0 nitrate and phosphate I would cut the vinegar dose. Corals actually do better with a bit of both. It looks like some sort of bacterial bloom to me.

 

[mcgyvr]

I would stop the vinegar and more importantly stop the GFO..
Neither seem to be needed if you are measuring zero of both N and P and if it will stay that way without you doing anything..
I certainly don't like to see people running GFO with zero phosphates....

I don't see anything on the rocks.. I mean nothing... certainly nothing to be concerned about..

The tank is relatively new right? If so I'd let it do its own thing for a bit to mature some more and it should clear on its own..
IMO people cause more problems using chemicals,etc... they don't need early on in a tanks life... Some "ugly" should be expected and tolerated for at least the first year..

 

[Rodeo_Roger]

The tank is about a year and a half old. I had the same tank running and well established before it developed a very small leak at one of the seams that I had to completely break down and reseal. I am doing everything the same that I did with the tank prior to the leak and never had these issues. Used all of my old recipes and remedies just for that reason. It's hard to tell in the pictures I posted but believe me, it's definitely there. and just in the beginning stages of its bloom. Gets out of hand quickly. That's why I'm seeking help this time.

I would stop the vinegar and more importantly stop the GFO..
Neither seem to be needed if you are measuring zero of both N and P and if it will stay that way without you doing anything..
I certainly don't like to see people running GFO with zero phosphates....

I don't see anything on the rocks.. I mean nothing... certainly nothing to be concerned about..

The tank is relatively new right? If so I'd let it do its own thing for a bit to mature some more and it should clear on its own..
IMO people cause more problems using chemicals,etc... they don't need early on in a tanks life... Some "ugly" should be expected and tolerated for at least the first year..

 

[Rodeo_Roger]

Here was the tank before the leak. Using all the same remedies.

 

[mcgyvr]

I still would most certainly would NOT be running GFO... But I don't know if you really have a phosphate problem and its whats keeping it under control (I kind of doubt it which is why I'm recommending against it)..
Its to treat a real phosphate problem.. It should not be used if you don't have one.

Phosphate and nitrate are actually beneficial nutrients.. But like everything you can have too much and its a problem.. Too little is also a problem..

I always take it back to ones lawn.. If you fertilize your lawn (N-P-K) it grows green/lush.. Too much burns it out.. Too little and all you get are weeds..
IMO you are in the lacking sufficient fertilizer so you are in the weed stage now..

 

[Rodeo_Roger]

That actually makes sense. I had to start target feeding my coral due to the fact of lack of beneficial nutrients. I think my plans is to remove the GFO, cut down my vinegar dosing from 35ml/day to about 12-15ml/day, do another red slime remover to kick start it(my tank has always handled them very well), removed a good portion of the effected sand, and a 50gal water change. All over the course of a week or so.

I still would most certainly would NOT be running GFO... But I don't know if you really have a phosphate problem and its whats keeping it under control (I kind of doubt it which is why I'm recommending against it)..
Its to treat a real phosphate problem.. It should not be used if you don't have one.

Phosphate and nitrate are actually beneficial nutrients.. But like everything you can have too much and its a problem.. Too little is also a problem..

I always take it back to ones lawn.. If you fertilize your lawn (N-P-K) it grows green/lush.. Too much burns it out.. Too little and all you get are weeds..
IMO you are in the lacking sufficient fertilizer so you are in the weed stage now..

 

[reefgeezer]

Just in case... Shine a light into your ATO storage vessel. Do you see any evidence of a bacterial bloom in there like slimy coating on walls or stringy stuff floating around?

 

[Rodeo_Roger]

Already ruled that step out. Completely drained, cleaned, and fully dried my ATO storage tank a few weeks back. Thought that might've been part of the issue. Actually did it to all of my barrels.

Just in case... Shine a light into your ATO storage vessel. Do you see any evidence of a bacterial bloom in there like slimy coating on walls or stringy stuff floating around?

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[reefgeezer]

I your pictures am I seeing a brown "algae or something" on the sand and maybe some red "algae or something" on the rocks?

Does the brown "algae or something" kind of go away after the lights have been off a while or get worse after the lights have been on all day? Do you see any stringy qualities to it or does it have bubbles in it?

Does the red "algae or something" rub off quite easily or is it kind of thick & tough?

 

[Rodeo_Roger]

I'll have to double check but from wheat I can recall, the brown on the sand does get worse after a full day of light along with the red on the rocks. And the red on the rocks does come off fairly easy with a brush or good turkey baster blasting. What are your thoughts?

I your pictures am I seeing a brown "algae or something" on the sand and maybe some red "algae or something" on the rocks?

Does the brown "algae or something" kind of go away after the lights have been off a while or get worse after the lights have been on all day? Do you see any stringy qualities to it or does it have bubbles in it?

Does the red "algae or something" rub off quite easily or is it kind of thick & tough?

 

[reefgeezer]

I'll have to double check but from wheat I can recall, the brown on the sand does get worse after a full day of light along with the red on the rocks. And the red on the rocks does come off fairly easy with a brush or good turkey baster blasting. What are your thoughts?

Cyano can be red, brown, green, even kind of blue. Since your tank is established but still young, I would bet that's the issue for the red & brown stuff. No big deal. As long as it isn't bad, something that eats it might help. If it becomes an issue, or you just don't like the look, lowering dissolved organic compounds can eliminate it. Make sure your skimmer is working well, skim wetter, if necessary use more GAC and change it more often, do some water changes, and suck out the Cyano as often as possible. As long as you don't let it get out of hand, it will probably go away on its own over time.

I wouldn't use the Red Slime Remover. I agree you should try to get nitrates and phosphates up slightly, but be careful about increasing feeding, stopping the vinegar, or removing the GFO too quickly to do so. Go slow. FWIW, I don't think vinegar encourages Cyano as much as other carbon sources. Stopping it wouldn't be as likely to help as it would be if you were using something like vodka or sugar.