Help with Koran

[law086]

Hello,

I've had an otherwise very health Koran Angelfish in my 180/400 gallon system for around three years. I purchased him when he was around 2-3 inches and full juvenal colors. As you can see in the below pictures, he's almost his full adulthood coloration and I would say he's a good 6-8 inches now.

The problem is that his head has recently started becoming discolored. I'm not sure why and it looks a bit like hole-in-the-head but I also thought that it could be due to the stress of color changing. I can't think of any system events that could have caused any issues. He's fat and eating well.

Here's a few pics:

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[jnc914]

It looks like HLLE. It is caused more so from lack of a proper diet, and a vitamin deficiency than any environmental issue. What type of algae are you offering the Koran. Do you also supplement his diet with Selcon, Zoe, or any other additives? Also, what food are you feeding to provide for its sponge needs?

 

[law086]

Hello,

Thanks for the reply.

To answer your questions:

1. I feed the tank Nori a few times a week. He gets a large share of it.

2. In the past I've used Selcon, but haven't for a bit. No other additives.

3. First, for his normal diet, he get mostly frozen krill and mysis. I feed this every other day. I also have a auto feeder that feeds twice a day with a mix of flake and pellet food. For the sponge need, I give him this stuff

I should mention two things however. I don't give him the angel food very often (sorry to admit). The problem I have with it is that it dissolves in the water column very quickly and he ends up getting very little of it anyhow.

Having said all that, do you have any suggestions on what I can do better (specifically with angel food)? Also, HLLE will typically clear up once better conditions are achieved, yes?

Thanks for your help

 

[kinlayan]

do you use carbon on this aquarium? there is a theory that carbon fines also cause hlle in fish and what are your nitrate levels?

 

[law086]

Yes, I do use carbon, in a media reactor. If that was the case, wouldn't all my fish be suffering from the same problem?

Nitrate levels are undetectable with API and Salifert kits.

 

[jnc914]

There are theories that both carbon and the use of Ozone take too much nutrients out of the tank water and could cause HLLE, however I don't think there are conclusive findings. Personally, I have used alot of carbon on my old 180 and there were a couple of fish that suffered from HLLE( Purple Tang & Coral BEauty Angel), so there may be some credence to that theory.

Ron---In regards to your previous post, I think your feeding regimine is fine. I would use selcon daily, add Vitamin C directly to your tank, and try to offer the Angel/Butterfly Mix w/ sponge at least 3 times. I would also limit carbon use to two weeks a month. I also offer Nori daily in small amounts. Also, a fish can definitely heal from HLLE, although there could be remaining scars that will lightly fade.

 

[law086]

Jason - thanks a lot for the info.

Two additional questions if you don't mind:

1. Is there a specific brand of Vitamin C that you recommend?

2. Do you know of a good technique to get the angel food in his mouth before it dissolves into the water column?

Thanks!

 

[Chymos45]

The thread title with "Koran" caught my attention, as I have one myself. I second all of the above dietary recommendations and also recommend checking your tank for any stray current. I've heard (note, no confirmed, solid evidence on the subject) that stray voltage from a power head, heater, or some other source can also cause HLLE. May be worth checking.

 

[law086]

Will do, thanks.

Great fish, aren't they?

 

[JHemdal]

You mentioned that the problem started up only recently. Were any changes were made to the husbandry of the tank? Like within two months of the symptoms starting? Even something as simple as changing the brand of carbon could be important....

Just to clarify - my implication about the carbon fines causing HLLE does not mean that the carbon removed substances from the water, but rather, that the carbon dust causes the lesions through some mechanical action.

Carbon being used in media reactors/filters with powerful pumps where there is a higher chance of mechanical erosion of the grains is a common cause of HLLE in aquariums.

Why some fish develop the problem and others don't is purely species-specific - some fish are more prone to it.

As mentioned in another thread - there is no evidence that a lack of HUFA's contribute to this problem, or rather, that jacking up the HUFA levels will resolve it. Stray current is also a dead end.

Adding vitamin C directly to a tank is not suggested. Bacteria will assimilate it before it can do any good and remember, it is an acid.
In my book, I discuss an unpublished study that demonstrated no improvement after 8 weeks of ascorbic acid additions of 5 mg/l - but pH problems were noted in another test. Ascorbyl palmitate is probably a better source of Vit. C

Jay

 

[Chymos45]

Yes, a great fish for a FOWLR tank, but I am torn on what to do with mine now that I am trying to get my new 185G reef up and running. Plumbing supplies are sitting on my front porch right now (just delivered) while I am at work to pay for them. She LOVES to eat the sponges... I've had her for about 7 years now and she moved to Texas and back with me without incident. Tough little buggers.

Regarding Jay's refute that stray current is a possibility, like I said in my post, I have no concrete evidence to the contrary. It was simply a suggestion and even if it is not the cause of the HLLE, you want to get rid of it anyway as a safety precaution for YOU!

 

[law086]

Chymos45 - not to derail my thread, but my Koran is in a full reef and is great. Sounds like yours is a bit older, but mine keeps to itself mostly. When he was younger I would catch him nipping a bit, but never enough to do serious damage and doesn't really nip (that I notice) anymore. Mine is a perfect reef inhabitant.

 

[law086]

JHemdal - funny you ask, but I didn't run much carbon in the past and a few months ago I started. Perhaps it could be related to carbon dust.

Anyway to clear this up or does it just filer out on it's own over time?

 

[Chymos45]

Sorry to perpetuate the derailing, but thanks for the info. Maybe I will give it a shot and see what happens...

Famous last words.............

 

[law086]

No problem on derailing. Good luck :beer:

 

[JHemdal]

law086,

It isn't always possible to reverse the HLLE, but you may be able to stop its spread. I would discontinue using carbon in the reactor, and run your skimmer to collected as much wet foam as it can (just be sure to replace all that skimmate with seawater rather than tap water). I would also siphon-clean any sediment in the sump.
Then, since HLLE seems to be caused by multiple factors, I would also increase water changes as much as you can and make what dietary improvments you are able. Some of the frozen gelatin diets show a lot of promise for angelfish nutrition. Finally, as I mentioned before, you'll want to identify other fish in the tank that may develop the same syndrome, and watch them closely.

Good luck!

Jay

 

[law086]

Will do, thanks a lot Jay.

- Ron