Help with Royal Gramma

[lee_d_m]

Hi,

I've had a Royal Gramma in QT for just over 3 weeks. He was showing signs of Ich when I got him so I treated him with Chloroquine phosphate. After 2 or 3 days, all the spots disappeared and I haven't seen any since.

About 10 days in to the CP treatment, he started to develop cloudy eyes (both eyes) and his fins have started to become ragged.

I FW dipped him but didn't see anything come off, but I gave him a 6 hour bath in a prazi based treatment just to be sure.

However, he still didn't improve, so I have been treating him with a broad-spectrum anti-bacterial called Myxazin for the last 4 days, but he still looks the same (if anything his fins are becoming more ragged).

The Myxazin is a 5 day course, so I am not expecting him to look much better by tomorrow, so I'd like some advice as to my best course of action.

I have some Seachem Metro available, so was wondering whether that might be worth trying ?

FWIW, he's eating well and otherwise appears perfectly healthy.

I've uploaded a couple of pics which hopefully show the guys condition

Thanks

Lee

 

[HumbleFish]

There are some anecdotal reports that treating with CP makes bacterial infection more likely; although I personally have not noticed this.

Treating with a broad spectrum antibiotic is the correct course of action, but I am not familiar with Myxazin. So I did a little research on it, and these are the listed active ingredients:

Malachite Green (0.17% w/v), Formaldehyde (0.24% w/v) and Acriflavine (0.11% w/v).

Of those 3 listed ingredients, only Acriflavine may have anti-bacterial properties. However, it's more used to treat fungus in f/w fish. Malachite Green may be useful for healing wounds, and formaldehyde is used to treat external protozoa such as Brooklynella and temporary relief for Marine Velvet.

My recommendation would be to use a more effective antibiotic med. I looked it up, and apparently you can get Furan-2 in the UK (see links below):

http://www.vitamingrocer.co.uk/Aquarium-Pharmaceuticals-Furan-2-Powder-p/304693.htm

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aquarium-Pharmaceuticals-Furan-2-Powder-10-Packets-/271144209149

Acceptable alternatives would be something that was either kanamycin or erythromycin based.

 

[lee_d_m]

Ok great, thank you very much. After I wrote my post I discovered Furan-2 and found somewhere that sells it here so I've ordered some, should be with me tomorrow hopefully.

I think I'll give that a try as you suggested. I'm going to do a water change and run some carbon now to remove the Myxazin as well.

Thanks

Lee

 

[lee_d_m]

So today is the final dose of Furan-2. My RG still has the same symptoms as before unfortunately, his eyes have small clouds on both and the fins are slightly ragged.

How long should it take for the Furan-2 to take effect usually ?

He is still eating well and appears fine, but the lack of improvement is a little worrying and frustrating.

My water quality is good, nitrates are 2, and a tiny little nitrite (0.05) on my Salifert kit, but I even see that much sometimes on my display. Ph is 8.3.

What do you recommend I do after the Furan-2 treatment, should I wait a few days and see, or would a FW dip be worth trying to see if it is actually flukes on the eyes or some other parasite.

BTW, I've read the flukes thread and apart form the cloudy eyes and ragged fins, he shows no other signs of flukes, no scratching, head-shaking lethargy etc,

Thanks for any suggestions.

Lee

 

[HumbleFish]

So today is the final dose of Furan-2. My RG still has the same symptoms as before unfortunately, his eyes have small clouds on both and the fins are slightly ragged.

How long should it take for the Furan-2 to take effect usually ?

He is still eating well and appears fine, but the lack of improvement is a little worrying and frustrating.

Unfortunately, IME antibiotic treatment can be slow acting when it comes to fish. You usually have to do 2 rounds, or 8 doses total, to knock it out.

My water quality is good, nitrates are 2, and a tiny little nitrite (0.05) on my Salifert kit, but I even see that much sometimes on my display. Ph is 8.3.

The nitrite reading is a little concerning. You need to test for ammonia ASAP.

What do you recommend I do after the Furan-2 treatment, should I wait a few days and see, or would a FW dip be worth trying to see if it is actually flukes on the eyes or some other parasite.

I would check for flukes now via f/w dip. If he has flukes in his eyes, that's pretty serious and requires Prazipro treatment ASAP. Antibiotics does nothing for worms.

 

[lee_d_m]

Hi,

Thanks again for the quick response.

I have two Seachem ammonia alert discs on the tank and both are reading 0 ammonia, so I'm confident that ammonia is 0, as I said, even on my DT the Salifert nitrite sometimes shows 0.05 Nitrite.

I have also done a FW dip already (couple of weeks ago) which didn't appear to show anything, plus he's had a 6 hour bath in Sera Tremazol (which contains Prazi, we can't get Prazi Pro in the UK) and his symptoms remained. I guess there's no harm in another FW dip right, I read somewhere to do 10 minutes if you suspect flukes, would you agree with that, I did 5 minutes before. ?

I guess if I do this and there's still no change, another round of Furan-2 would be in order, I'm kind of glad you said it might take two rounds, at least the lack of improvement is not unusual.

Lee

 

[Deinonych]

My RG had a similar reaction when I treated him with CP. A round of antibiotics (I used Kanaplex) helped, and it eventually cleared 100% once he got to the DT where the water quality was much higher.

From my observations, RGs seem to have weaker immune systems than other fish. In addition to the bacterial infection noted, they are usually the first to show signs of crypto, and can succumb to it quickly if they aren't treated.

 

[lee_d_m]

Thanks for your comments, that's very interesting and echoes my current and previous experiences with RG's, particularly the speed with which they shows signs of Ich.

Touch wood, he hasn't shown any signs of Ich since the CP treatment, so hopefully it's just a bacterial infection that I'm dealing with.

If I was to add him to my DT whilst still showing symptoms (cloudy eyes) but otherwise appearing healthy, how much risk am I likely to put my current DT stock at with this action ? Current DT stock are two small clowns, blenny and 3 wrasses.

Thanks

Lee

 

[HumbleFish]

I have also done a FW dip already (couple of weeks ago) which didn't appear to show anything, plus he's had a 6 hour bath in Sera Tremazol (which contains Prazi, we can't get Prazi Pro in the UK) and his symptoms remained. I guess there's no harm in another FW dip right, I read somewhere to do 10 minutes if you suspect flukes, would you agree with that, I did 5 minutes before. ?

I only dip for 5 mins max; IME if a fish has flukes, they will start falling out after the 3-4 min mark.

Thanks for your comments, that's very interesting and echoes my current and previous experiences with RG's, particularly the speed with which they shows signs of Ich.

IME; RG are "ich magnets" - like tangs.

If I was to add him to my DT whilst still showing symptoms (cloudy eyes) but otherwise appearing healthy, how much risk am I likely to put my current DT stock at with this action ? Current DT stock are two small clowns, blenny and 3 wrasses.

The risk would be great, as you would be sharing whatever ailment is still afflicting your RG. Harmful bacterium, flukes, ich. FWIW; 10 days of CP treatment is not long enough to eradicate ich. You need at least 30 days of continual treatment (same as copper), as CP only kills the free swimming stage of the parasite (again, same as copper).

As a general rule, never put a fish in your DT until he looks 100%!

 

[lee_d_m]

ok, point taken, I certainly don't want to take any risks.

One final question if you don't mind, if I was to do a second round of Furan, the dosage instructions state to remove the meds via carbon 24 hours after the 4th dosage. Should I still do this and then start the 2nd round as if it was the first, or do I not need to remove the meds and just do a 25% WC then start the dosing again

Thanks

Lee

 

[HumbleFish]

Probably a good idea to run carbon and do the 25% WC. Antibiotics can be lethal to fish if overdosed.

 

[lee_d_m]

After a week of observation and 20% WC every 3 days, the eyes are still a bit cloudy, but up until today he was looking great otherwise, I think I could see his colours looking more vibrant and he was very active.

However, today, he has some spots back :sad2: Looks like the CP didn't finish off the whitespot, which is not really a surprise as I ended the treatment early.

I think I'm going to try CP treatment again, but before I do, can I get a sanity check on my approach.

My QT is 80L after displacement, so I intended to perform one dose of 800mg of CP, and then replace an equal amount when I do a WC.
Treatment will last for 30 days, and I think I'll keep the lights off as well, just switching them on briefly each day to inspect him.

Have I got this approach correct ?
Anything else I should be doing ?
How often do you guys do a WC when treating with CP ?

Many thanks

Lee

 

[HumbleFish]

For you, the dosage would be 10mg/L for prophylactic treatment, or 15mg/L for active infections. So, I would start by dosing 800mg, wait 24hrs, and if the fish is still eating add another 400mg for a total concentration of 15mg/L. Hold it there for 30 consecutive days.

I noticed in one of your pics that it appears you have a dead coral skeleton in the QT. This is a problem when mixing with CP, as it's very possible rock/substrate absorb some of the medication (same as copper). So, it's best to treat with CP in a bare bottom, no rock QT.

 

[MrTuskfish]

My RG had a similar reaction when I treated him with CP. A round of antibiotics (I used Kanaplex) helped, and it eventually cleared 100% once he got to the DT where the water quality was much higher.

From my observations, RGs seem to have weaker immune systems than other fish. In addition to the bacterial infection noted, they are usually the first to show signs of crypto, and can succumb to it quickly if they aren't treated.

I agree, RGs are very tough to cure of any parasite infestation.