help with RTN Strawberry Shortcake Pink-line syndrome?

[Moser]

The beauty of sea water is if water quality is kept at very high quality, the very bacteria you try to dose will occur at the proper proportions to process PO4 and NO3 without intervention. I think the death occurs when trying to manipulate these to thrive in poor quality water by dosing and to process excess nutrients rather then doing strong maintenance and removal.

IMO, it can work but it is like using a hammer and chisel to cut diamonds. Just too harsh and hard to control for such a easy process that occurs naturally in nature. Maintain very good water quality through regular maintenance and dosing and manipulating cultures is not needed. If anything, Lessen variables until success is achieved long term, then try to tweek colors or growth with fine tuning nutrients and minerals if you so desire.

Process or remove and dilute ? I use remove and dilute ! I do large water changes weekly with a param matched(to my DT) mix . 25 % total volume weekly works for me. GL

Do it like Dan says.
I always say, look at the tank of the person who is advising.
I also say, if you like a tank, do EXACTLY as they do…..

Do what Dan does!. The principles of his system are about as simple as you can get and his system is about the best you can get!!.

I would certainly try water changes when my system is struggling!.

Mo

 

[rigleautomotive]

Thank you but I must say I am as humble as I am old, and this is alot. lol. I do not pretend to know more then anyone and never offer my advise unless I lived the game. Lived through the death and regrowth and proved it to myself repeatedly. That being said, The 50 or so cases I have studied with experienced aquarists and meltdowns of this sort , had a few things in common. Sand beds that were old. Dosing of bacteria or liquid foods, and a large # or acroporas. These seemed to be a common thread and success was achieved in all these cases long term until the addition of refrigerated foods or carbon and bacteria dosing was employed.

My theory is that a bacteria strain is capable of thriving in the medium these products use and can inoculate a aquarium with a flesh eating bacteria as well as the beneficial type that naturally occur . If conditions are favorable to this rouge bacteria, it will flourish and not stop until it slowly consumes all living flesh it feeds on. Sometimes very coral specific also IME . Again, I do believe a elevated ph slows or stops the on slaught but other then that, not much to do. keep excellent water quality. frag any live coral above the necrosis and super glue to sterilize covering some of the live tissue. increase flow and protein skimming. wish I had more to help !! It is hard to watch for sure. GL

one more thing. Be certain you are at full strength salinity. These issues seem to favor lower sg.
1.026 on a calibrated refractometer is what I shoot for and stable

 

[reef bloke]

Not much to add really but I have noticed the pink staining on two stripped SS corals at seperate times. I don't think its a bacterial band disease but a pigment deposited into the calcium carbonate and could possibly be the norm for that type of coral.

 

[kittyworm]

Thank you but I must say I am as humble as I am old, and this is alot. lol. I do not pretend to know more then anyone and never offer my advise unless I lived the game. Lived through the death and regrowth and proved it to myself repeatedly. That being said, The 50 or so cases I have studied with experienced aquarists and meltdowns of this sort , had a few things in common. Sand beds that were old. Dosing of bacteria or liquid foods, and a large # or acroporas. These seemed to be a common thread and success was achieved in all these cases long term until the addition of refrigerated foods or carbon and bacteria dosing was employed.

My theory is that a bacteria strain is capable of thriving in the medium these products use and can inoculate a aquarium with a flesh eating bacteria as well as the beneficial type that naturally occur . If conditions are favorable to this rouge bacteria, it will flourish and not stop until it slowly consumes all living flesh it feeds on. Sometimes very coral specific also IME . Again, I do believe a elevated ph slows or stops the on slaught but other then that, not much to do. keep excellent water quality. frag any live coral above the necrosis and super glue to sterilize covering some of the live tissue. increase flow and protein skimming. wish I had more to help !! It is hard to watch for sure. GL

one more thing. Be certain you are at full strength salinity. These issues seem to favor lower sg.
1.026 on a calibrated refractometer is what I shoot for and stable

Thanks alot! I will do water changes and increase salinity as you suggested. I was not able to frag any of the effected corals as they all died too fast, but I will do as you suggest and hope I can save ones that are left. Again, thanks for all the help.

 

[kittyworm]

May be worth while to look into dosing some lugols. It is a strong oxidizer and will raise the redox. Could also help in the war on bacteria.

Dans right, a thorough cleaning, remove and dilute is a good starting point.

Nice tank

Thanks for the help. Does TM coral Iodine have similar effect to lugols, or its completely different thing? I used to add Iodine to the system, but has stopped for a long time. I just did a 30% water change since yesterday, and will maintain water changes like Dan suggested, hope everything goes well.

 

[kittyworm]

Do it like Dan says.
I always say, look at the tank of the person who is advising.
I also say, if you like a tank, do EXACTLY as they do"¦..

Do what Dan does!. The principles of his system are about as simple as you can get and his system is about the best you can get!!.

I would certainly try water changes when my system is struggling!.

Mo

Thanks I've done some water changes yesterday, and will continue like Dan suggested. Guess I just tried too many things on the system as I was trying to figure out a way that best suited me. This system was planned as an experimental system for the tank I'm about to start later this year when I move to a new home, so I tried too many things at once and it just made everything worse. It was very irresponsible of me to put all the livestocks at risk, and I'm very sorry for it.

 

[kittyworm]

Not much to add really but I have noticed the pink staining on two stripped SS corals at seperate times. I don't think its a bacterial band disease but a pigment deposited into the calcium carbonate and could possibly be the norm for that type of coral.

I guess you could be right about the stain. A couple of people told me of the same thing after my post, I guess I might have jumped to conclusions about the stain. Anyhow, something must be wrong in the water that I cannot find out from test kits, so waterchange right now sounds like the best and safest way to start. Thank you for the help

 

[rigleautomotive]

Thanks I've done some water changes yesterday, and will continue like Dan suggested. Guess I just tried too many things on the system as I was trying to figure out a way that best suited me. This system was planned as an experimental system for the tank I'm about to start later this year when I move to a new home, so I tried too many things at once and it just made everything worse. It was very irresponsible of me to put all the livestocks at risk, and I'm very sorry for it.

Your intentions were good but you had some bad information. I would not place the blame on yourself . The hobby is riddled with bad info, no science, and plenty of snake oil. Throw some creative marketing on top and it is no wonder, the keeping of corals is thought to be impossible for new comers. The beauty is you are smarter today then yesterday and the day before. You will,if you want it bad enough, succeed and have the reef of your dreams. Patience is key .

 

[rigleautomotive]

Thanks for the help. Does TM coral Iodine have similar effect to lugols, or its completely different thing? I used to add Iodine to the system, but has stopped for a long time. I just did a 30% water change since yesterday, and will maintain water changes like Dan suggested, hope everything goes well.

TMPCC is a dip for removing pests on corals. Not my fav as it is harsh to some species. A good gentile effective dip I use is TLF Revive.

Lugols is a iodide additive and I would caution dosing it. It becomes toxic at very low levels and is very hard to get a accurate measurement of its density in sea water. Most titration kits are a epic failure for iodine. Dosing it blindly is not the route I would suggest in your circumstance but it has shown to be helpful in some old reefs with stn or toxic tank meltdown.

 

[Piper27]

Dan, thank you for sharing your experience. I was wondering, if there is a coral affected by this bad bacteria, is it a bad idea to introduce it to another separate system? Obviously there would be no carbon dosing or any other reasons for the corals problems in this new tank, so would that be a good idea? Is there a risk on passing on this bad bacteria?

I have had the same experience of rtn, (except without the pink lines, which I am not fimilar with...) but in my case it may have been a few other different issues that started the rtn. All were different than the original poster but same results.

Kittyworm, where do the corals start to rtn from and how long did they take to die completely?

 

[kittyworm]

TMPCC is a dip for removing pests on corals. Not my fav as it is harsh to some species. A good gentile effective dip I use is TLF Revive.

Lugols is a iodide additive and I would caution dosing it. It becomes toxic at very low levels and is very hard to get a accurate measurement of its density in sea water. Most titration kits are a epic failure for iodine. Dosing it blindly is not the route I would suggest in your circumstance but it has shown to be helpful in some old reefs with stn or toxic tank meltdown.

Thanks for the reply, I will not try Lugol.

TLF Revive and Pro Rx is what I usually use for dipping new corals. I guess I used TM pro coral iodine wrongly as LFS suggested it was meant to add Iodine to the system and a couple months ago I used to add it regulary into the system as instructed on the bottle...orz.

I just lost the red staghorn today, saved two frags on the tip, hope tissue stops peeling off. Havent seen additional RTN corals so I guess its a good sign.

Just another question, LFS ran out of the DD salt I have been using, I can only get Instant Ocean at this point, If I switch salt at this point, is there going to have anymore negative effect on the system? should I do multiple small water changes everyday, or a couple of larger ones over the week?

Also, Should I reduce light at this movement? I have a radium 400W 10000K HQI running 6 hrs a day, and a pair of Mazzara P LED (about 96W) runnig on default program. Main tank is 100 X 65 X 55H (CM)

 

[kittyworm]

Dan, thank you for sharing your experience. I was wondering, if there is a coral affected by this bad bacteria, is it a bad idea to introduce it to another separate system? Obviously there would be no carbon dosing or any other reasons for the corals problems in this new tank, so would that be a good idea? Is there a risk on passing on this bad bacteria?

I have had the same experience of rtn, (except without the pink lines, which I am not fimilar with...) but in my case it may have been a few other different issues that started the rtn. All were different than the original poster but same results.

Kittyworm, where do the corals start to rtn from and how long did they take to die completely?

Usually in the middle section of the coral. If left untouched normally completely die off in a day or two. Tissues start floating off at night, and are mostly gone by the time I get up in the morning. There are a couple of speciments that last a few more days though.

 

[1000_smiles]

Sorry I don't have any helpful suggestions, but I am interested in how you are getting along. So could you keep us posted. I will be tagging along.

I experienced something similar recently, which unfortunately ended in a tank wipe. I figured that something bad had gotten into the tank and after reading Dan's comment, it could very well have been the liquid coral food that led to a bacterial infection.

Here are a few things I am wondering about as I read this thread:

Would a UV sterilizer (old school, I know) be effective/useful in controlling a bacterial infection, or are simple water changes as effective?

Could an established beneficial bacterial population be the difference between a successful tank and one that is struggling? I remember when people used to get a handful of sand from an established successful tank to seed new tanks. Do people still do that?

Are aqua cultured corals more tolerant to the bacterial soup in our tanks than wild corals, hence the greater success with them?

Sorry for rambling on. Since the mail order frags seem to have started everything, and you dipped and inspected them, I am wondering how to prevent a reoccurance.

Best of luck. You have a beautiful tank.

 

[kittyworm]

Sorry I don't have any helpful suggestions, but I am interested in how you are getting along. So could you keep us posted. I will be tagging along.

I experienced something similar recently, which unfortunately ended in a tank wipe. I figured that something bad had gotten into the tank and after reading Dan's comment, it could very well have been the liquid coral food that led to a bacterial infection.

Here are a few things I am wondering about as I read this thread:

Would a UV sterilizer (old school, I know) be effective/useful in controlling a bacterial infection, or are simple water changes as effective?

Could an established beneficial bacterial population be the difference between a successful tank and one that is struggling? I remember when people used to get a handful of sand from an established successful tank to seed new tanks. Do people still do that?

Are aqua cultured corals more tolerant to the bacterial soup in our tanks than wild corals, hence the greater success with them?

Sorry for rambling on. Since the mail order frags seem to have started everything, and you dipped and inspected them, I am wondering how to prevent a reoccurance.

Best of luck. You have a beautiful tank.

I have never used UV sterilizer so cannot comment on it.

I'm not sure about the sand thing from established tank, people around me with 2-3 years + systems used to add small amounts of fress liverock to the sump and replace it every now and then, I guess its with similar intentions.

From my experience, aqua cultured corals do have a higher chance of success in home aquarium. At least speciements that do not do well away from the wild is already being screened off.

I guess the best way of introducing new livestock into the system is to have a quaranteen tank. Not having it is my greatest regret about this current tank. I've battled with multiple types of nuesance algae, flatworms, monti eating nudibranch, pyramid snails and things I cant even identify. I would certainly install a guaranteen tank when I move to a new apartment.

Well these are just what I know from my understanding. Hope others with more knowledge can shed more light on it.

 

[LawmanRob]

I'm Going through the same exact experience in my DB 30 cube, I also have a JBJ 28 PRO LED that has had no issues.
I recently moved from Knoxville, Tn to Nashville, Tn, so this led me to think it was the effects of a mini cycle. The fact that I have not lost any corals other than SPS has me seriously doubting any damaging cycle occurred.
The only things different that I have done are: I added a few drops of MB7 and I began to feed Oyster Feast.
My best description of what is occurring is, rtn just on the tips during the day, in the morning total RTN, just bare white skeleton. Also, it's not several corals at a time, they are perishing one by one.
At this point I'm a day or two away from breaking the tank down completely to start over, I hope I don't have to do this.

I just did a 15 gallon water change, I run WM Biopellets, ROX carbon, GFO, Eshopps S-120 skimmer, Radion G2; I have 3 clownfish, all around 1";
My parametres are:
Salinity: 1.025 (refractometer calibrated using 2 different solutions)
Nitrate: 2-5 (Salifert)
Alk: 7.7 (Salifert) I've been testing for the past week to set up dosing.
Calcium 470 (Salifert) I have not dosed Cal, not sure why it's this high.
Mag (No test) I need to order a new kit.
Phos ~.15 (Hanna) I tested 4 times .09, .14, .15, and .16

 

[animalkingdom]

Similar experience happened to me a while back...this was a very interesting read as I could never figure out what was the cause. It may or may not have corresponded to the use of oyster feast and carbon dosing. IT was too long ago to remember for sure. All I know now is I no longer am having this issue and am keeping it simple with just lights skimming and water changes. I really like reading Dan's theory. Very interesting.

 

[blakers82]

Interesting theories. I'm a KISS fan myself and on the water change train.

 

[Allmost]

TMPCC is a dip for removing pests on corals. Not my fav as it is harsh to some species. A good gentile effective dip I use is TLF Revive.

Lugols is a iodide additive and I would caution dosing it. It becomes toxic at very low levels and is very hard to get a accurate measurement of its density in sea water. Most titration kits are a epic failure for iodine. Dosing it blindly is not the route I would suggest in your circumstance but it has shown to be helpful in some old reefs with stn or toxic tank meltdown.

quick side question. do you dose Organic carbon of any type at all ?

my Idea behind dosing bacteria strains once in a while is to basically make sure its them taking up C and N and P, and not some pest or flesh eating bacteria ... but I like your logic alot too, so just wanted to know if you dose organic carbon or not .

thanks

 

[tripdad]

I have had some luck battling STN, not RTN, by immediatly raising my alk level 1 point over 24 hrs. I know this seems risky but it is the only thing that has worked at all for me. I normally keep it at 8.5. The corals seem to be able to handle an up-spike fairly well but not a downward spike for me anyway. I dont dose anything other than 2-part and fish food. Then I lower it back down slowly over days as I watch for coral reaction.I have only saved a single RTN'ing coral by doing a super glue band above the necrosis line. Just my experience for what it's worth, good luck.

 

[kittyworm]

I'm Going through the same exact experience in my DB 30 cube, I also have a JBJ 28 PRO LED that has had no issues.
I recently moved from Knoxville, Tn to Nashville, Tn, so this led me to think it was the effects of a mini cycle. The fact that I have not lost any corals other than SPS has me seriously doubting any damaging cycle occurred.
The only things different that I have done are: I added a few drops of MB7 and I began to feed Oyster Feast.
My best description of what is occurring is, rtn just on the tips during the day, in the morning total RTN, just bare white skeleton. Also, it's not several corals at a time, they are perishing one by one.
At this point I'm a day or two away from breaking the tank down completely to start over, I hope I don't have to do this.

I just did a 15 gallon water change, I run WM Biopellets, ROX carbon, GFO, Eshopps S-120 skimmer, Radion G2; I have 3 clownfish, all around 1";
My parametres are:
Salinity: 1.025 (refractometer calibrated using 2 different solutions)
Nitrate: 2-5 (Salifert)
Alk: 7.7 (Salifert) I've been testing for the past week to set up dosing.
Calcium 470 (Salifert) I have not dosed Cal, not sure why it's this high.
Mag (No test) I need to order a new kit.
Phos ~.15 (Hanna) I tested 4 times .09, .14, .15, and .16

Sorry for the late reply. All I'm doing right now are water changes. Tanks seems stable at this movement, but its still too soon to tell. I used to run carbon and PO4X4, but replacing them seemed to have negative effects, so I have stopped both at this point. Also, I no longer add coral foods, just fish.