AmherstReef
New member
Never said it was scientifically proven , never said it will cure ich, simply said it may boost the fish's immune system, which cant hurt.
help
- Thread starter saltyscotsman
- Start date
Never said it was scientifically proven , never said it will cure ich, simply said it may boost the fish's immune system, which cant hurt.
Cryptocaryon irritans; here we go again. A few misperceived points need clarification as usual.
This parasite may live many tanks but it doesn't have to be there. It can be eradicated and prevented. Ich free tanks are possible with quarantine and preventative treatment,preferably via the tank transfer method . Infected tanks left fishless for 72 days will be ich free going forward.
Ich is an equal opportunity killer ;attacking both weak and strong fish. If folks choose not to quarantine new specimens then ultimately, sooner or later most will find they actually chose to have ich in the tank . It's pervasive in the hobby as the fish we acquire are generally exposed to other fish with it somewhere along the line in the chain of custody.
Garlic ,cinnamon, pepper , herbal medications , cleaner shrimp, more food , etc. are useless hope and cope actions. Many who choose not to quarantine or treat effectively ,thus, choose to keep tanks with ich in them and may also use these ineffective methods with false hopes often reporting poorly perceived results not really seen with clear eyes seeing success when it's not be there at all.
If ich doesn't kill the fish in first infestation , it offers a respite for a few days,a week or even a month or two ; sometimes several months may pass as a fish develops partial immunity .But then; one day as tomites hatch out in large numbers it strikes and may do so again and again over the course of a year or years. It can persist unseen in a partially immune fish indefinately.
These respites foster a perception that the ineffective methods products help . Manufactures of these products take full advantage of the placebo effect in their marketing. Caveat emptor applies here.
In brief ,there are no reef safe effective treatments but several out of tank effective methods:tank transfer; copper; fomalin; quinine meds are new and appear useful.
I help Mr Turkfish and Snoravitch from time to time on the Fish Disease forum. Most of the info there is solid,imo. It's a good resource. A search in this forum will also offer lot's of information as well for those who want to learn more about this fish killer.
I know Norm( salty scottsman) knows what's up and will do the best he possibly can.
This parasite may live many tanks but it doesn't have to be there. It can be eradicated and prevented. Ich free tanks are possible with quarantine and preventative treatment,preferably via the tank transfer method . Infected tanks left fishless for 72 days will be ich free going forward.
Ich is an equal opportunity killer ;attacking both weak and strong fish. If folks choose not to quarantine new specimens then ultimately, sooner or later most will find they actually chose to have ich in the tank . It's pervasive in the hobby as the fish we acquire are generally exposed to other fish with it somewhere along the line in the chain of custody.
Garlic ,cinnamon, pepper , herbal medications , cleaner shrimp, more food , etc. are useless hope and cope actions. Many who choose not to quarantine or treat effectively ,thus, choose to keep tanks with ich in them and may also use these ineffective methods with false hopes often reporting poorly perceived results not really seen with clear eyes seeing success when it's not be there at all.
If ich doesn't kill the fish in first infestation , it offers a respite for a few days,a week or even a month or two ; sometimes several months may pass as a fish develops partial immunity .But then; one day as tomites hatch out in large numbers it strikes and may do so again and again over the course of a year or years. It can persist unseen in a partially immune fish indefinately.
These respites foster a perception that the ineffective methods products help . Manufactures of these products take full advantage of the placebo effect in their marketing. Caveat emptor applies here.
In brief ,there are no reef safe effective treatments but several out of tank effective methods:tank transfer; copper; fomalin; quinine meds are new and appear useful.
I help Mr Turkfish and Snoravitch from time to time on the Fish Disease forum. Most of the info there is solid,imo. It's a good resource. A search in this forum will also offer lot's of information as well for those who want to learn more about this fish killer.
I know Norm( salty scottsman) knows what's up and will do the best he possibly can.
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
Cryptacyon irritans
Cryptacyon irritans
along with Tom, Eileen and some others here that have been doing this for awhile... I'm amazed at the continued misunderstanding of this MUCH HATED parasite.
It must be a fish retailers best friend in order to sell more fish... and EVERYBODY's worst nightmare.
I also love how guys like Tom go in depth to explain things like this OVER AND OVER AGIAN (because I surely could not) and my hat goes off to them.
I'm going to say it succinctly: the garlic and herbtana "cures" are BS.
Foody posted a GREAT link regarding garlic. Read.
And
here is the lowdown on Cryptocaryon irritans - marine ick, ich
note that is part one with a link to part two at bottom
NOBODY is "immune" to Crypto. It can make an "expert" feel like a fool should it get into their aquarium.
That's why I'm knocking on wood with every Crypto post I make.
Cryptacyon irritans
along with Tom, Eileen and some others here that have been doing this for awhile... I'm amazed at the continued misunderstanding of this MUCH HATED parasite.
It must be a fish retailers best friend in order to sell more fish... and EVERYBODY's worst nightmare.
I also love how guys like Tom go in depth to explain things like this OVER AND OVER AGIAN (because I surely could not) and my hat goes off to them.
I'm going to say it succinctly: the garlic and herbtana "cures" are BS.
Foody posted a GREAT link regarding garlic. Read.
And
here is the lowdown on Cryptocaryon irritans - marine ick, ich
note that is part one with a link to part two at bottom
NOBODY is "immune" to Crypto. It can make an "expert" feel like a fool should it get into their aquarium.
That's why I'm knocking on wood with every Crypto post I make.
Jacwil
New member
Gary would you completely break your system dwn and setup several large systems in your basement to treat appropriately if your fish were to show an ich outbreak? Just curious is all.
I'm a complete novice in this hobby... I'll readily admit that. I definitely agree that Tom and Eileen et al are correct in the proper way to rid our aquariums of ich but it is a huge undertaking and certainly can be overwhelming and quite expensive. Because off this it's easy to grasp at the "snake oil fixes" that riddle the market.
Shortly after we setup our 150g our Kole tang showed symptoms. I freaked out. I was all set to gather up spare aquariums and start the whole tank transfer process but several days later the spots cleared up. Now of course I knew it wasn't gone but I decided to not move forward with treatment.
I did purchase some Selcon and soaked mysis in it and fed that once daily as well as Spectrum pellets. .. heavily. I did deal with a Cyano outbreak that has since been eradicated but after 6 months I've not seen any of the visual tell-tale signs and knowing folks have commented on how healthy our fish appear. .. and there are a lot lol.
I'm not trying to start any argument I'm just relating our experience to date. One of my concerns is how stressful it is on already infected fish, causing health issues or death. .. I've heard of people jumping the gun, transferring fish into inappropriate settings and having mass losses.
I'm a complete novice in this hobby... I'll readily admit that. I definitely agree that Tom and Eileen et al are correct in the proper way to rid our aquariums of ich but it is a huge undertaking and certainly can be overwhelming and quite expensive. Because off this it's easy to grasp at the "snake oil fixes" that riddle the market.
Shortly after we setup our 150g our Kole tang showed symptoms. I freaked out. I was all set to gather up spare aquariums and start the whole tank transfer process but several days later the spots cleared up. Now of course I knew it wasn't gone but I decided to not move forward with treatment.
I did purchase some Selcon and soaked mysis in it and fed that once daily as well as Spectrum pellets. .. heavily. I did deal with a Cyano outbreak that has since been eradicated but after 6 months I've not seen any of the visual tell-tale signs and knowing folks have commented on how healthy our fish appear. .. and there are a lot lol.
I'm not trying to start any argument I'm just relating our experience to date. One of my concerns is how stressful it is on already infected fish, causing health issues or death. .. I've heard of people jumping the gun, transferring fish into inappropriate settings and having mass losses.
Just my experience on this. In the past I have had two Yellow tang, a Blue Hippo and a Powder Blue tang. What I found out is that ich seems to be always present on the fish. It will come out when they are stressed out. This could be caused by multiple things, water, lighting, other inhabitant or external circumstance. Trying to catch him and doing all that work in the tank will stress him out even more which will cause more ich to show up. I think your best bet for now is to find out if something is causing stress, lower your salinity and monitor situation.
If at the end of the week if it's still bad, maybe a fresh water dip or a medicated dip will help.
Hope everything works out for you.
-Sweet
If at the end of the week if it's still bad, maybe a fresh water dip or a medicated dip will help.
Hope everything works out for you.
-Sweet
Gary Majchrzak
Team RC
I've done that in the past.
I've done copper, hyposalinity, garlic... you name it.
I don't think I'd go through that again. I hope I'm never faced with that choice ever again. The last time Crypto got into my reef aquarium (years ago) it was brought in with a Clown Goby of all things. Luckily, none of my fishes were seriously affected. I still believe the fact that my aquarium is/was (mostly) bare bottom, well fed and (relatively) stress free prevented a lethal outbreak from happening.
A poor environment (much stress) coupled with the introduction of Crypto can lead to a painful lesson that you'll never forget.
I do believe stress can excaberate any problem.... including Cryptocaryon.
Although Crypto may "seem" to be always present, it doesn't have to be that way. Don't introduce it and it won't be present.
saltyscotsman
New member
Thanks for all the info you guys, I will be emptying my tank in order to catch the remaining fish and transfer them to a quarantine tank and the tank will remain dormant for the alloted time to eradicate the dreaded ICH this outbreak was my fault as I had one four months ago but did not loose all my fish so I thought it was gone I did not know that it can lay dormant for months or years as Tom said a lesson well learned shame on me!!
I don't believe I will ever buy a tang again. I love them. They are beautiful. But they are likely the most ich-prone fish out there. Buy a tang and risk introducing (more?) ich into your tank. One missed feeding....one water change...really just one stressful event can spell havok.
I can't speak for Gary but I have and would again after trying other methods for more than a year as a novice.
It's easier than most think to qt and treat with tank transfer. It's some work but by no means is it overwhelming . Two ten gallon bins or tanks is about it. New water temp adjusted and with an sg equal to or lower than the tank water . A little ammonia detoxifier for backup but not really needed for a 3 day stay per tank. Simple and quick.
Alternatively a cylced tank or one equipped with some seeded sponge filter material from the sump or another filter in the display in an hob filter works for copper or formalin treatments.
Qaurantine with preventative treatment from the start for all new specimens and ich wont be an issue.
Sometimes but less often than not folks get lucky for a while.
Ich reinfestations of increasing density are a lot more stressful for a fish that survives the initial infestation, than moving a fish to a parasite free tank.
What scenarios concerning mass losses are you referencing? What killed the fish, specifically? Setting up a qt tak is no different than setting up an aquarium in the first place.So moving fish to one shouldn't kill them.
Sometimes but less often than not folks get lucky for a while with or without selcon and pellets,garlic etc.
It's easier than most think to qt and treat with tank transfer. It's some work but by no means is it overwhelming . Two ten gallon bins or tanks is about it. New water temp adjusted and with an sg equal to or lower than the tank water . A little ammonia detoxifier for backup but not really needed for a 3 day stay per tank. Simple and quick.
Alternatively a cylced tank or one equipped with some seeded sponge filter material from the sump or another filter in the display in an hob filter works for copper or formalin treatments.
Qaurantine with preventative treatment from the start for all new specimens and ich wont be an issue.
Sometimes but less often than not folks get lucky for a while.
Ich reinfestations of increasing density are a lot more stressful for a fish that survives the initial infestation, than moving a fish to a parasite free tank.
What scenarios concerning mass losses are you referencing? What killed the fish, specifically? Setting up a qt tak is no different than setting up an aquarium in the first place.So moving fish to one shouldn't kill them.
Sometimes but less often than not folks get lucky for a while with or without selcon and pellets,garlic etc.
The recuring ich scenario is common. The fish has it continously hosting it in the gills and nostrils and mouth unseen. Exposed fish often develop this type of partial immunity
It can break out anytime with or without a minor stress event or attack a new non immune specimens.
It can break out anytime with or without a minor stress event or attack a new non immune specimens.
With regard to an earlier comment, obviously you can't lower salinity to 1.009 ,the level for hyposalinity treatment, without killing all the isotonic inverts in the tank. and suppressing the biofilter temporarily;ammonia risk .Fresh water dips don't do very much either and are more stressful than effective. I don't know where all these notions about how to treat it come from. Ther is plenty of science on it and treatments are clear.
Obviously ,if fish have recurrent bouts with it even with realtively minor stress events ,it's in the tank and surviving at some level of density. It only takes one living parasite in a fish to make several hundred in one 10 day life cycle and then with in two weeks those hudndred or two multiply by hundred folds again and so on. Often just introducing new fish, even ich free fish gives the parasites living in the tank enough of a boost to break out and overwhelm even teh partially immune fish which may have survived earlier infestations.
This is how tank transfer works btw,from a post on the Fish Disease forum:
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by tmz
1. The whole idea does not always work. Ich attacks come in waves. What if a sudden large wave existed and there are already too many attachments on the fish that are still not seen by the naked eyes. In just two days your fish may die.
Nah, you got that wrong too.
At least read up on the basics about the life cycle crytocaryon irritans before trying to get others to follow your pronouncements , proscriptions and prescriptions and deriding others contributions.
The attacks come after (encysted tomites develop into theronts and leave the tomont phase , ie the cyst (after developing there for 3 to 28 days) . The theronts seek a fish to infect and need one within 24 hours before starving. They swim to the fish and infect it. They feed on the fish for about 3 to 7 days and leave as protomonts to form tomonts again and do so in 2 to 18 hours, then encyst as tomonts and form tomites that develop into theronts again.
During the intial infestation by trophonts the fish is often killed or suffers damage to it's gills or wounds that may become infected . Many times fish survive the initia l infestation and succumb to later infestations which are more virulent .
When trophonts leave the fish they are protomonts . They go to the bottom or other surfaces and encyst again to multiply a hundred to two hundredfold and again seek out a fish to feed on as one or two hundred new tophonts.
The only ich in a transfer tank are the trophonts that may come into the tank in or on a fish;no cysts on the bottom to hatch;so, no secondary infection or wave is possible . The fish moves before new trophonts can form.
There is no treatment for the trophonts in/on the fish; Copper and other meds or hyposalinity kill the free swimming phase, ie, theronts ;not embedded parasites or encysted ones. Thus , copper and hypo are designed to prevent secondary infestations after the intial bunch leave the fish.
Tank transfer eliminates secondary infections by abandoning the promonts ,tomonts and tomites before they have time to form into theronts. Drying the tank and equipment effectively sterilizes it by killing the cysts and any other forms of the parasite.
The timing of the teatment, 4 transfers 72 hours each, syncs with the life cycle of cryptocaryon irritans to ensure no parasites remain on or in the fish. Neat simple and natural.
Severely infested fish may get some relief via a fomalin bath, outside the transfer tank which may remove some of the parasites that may be clogging the gills in conjunction with tank transfer . That's a judgement call based on the behavior of the fish in a specific case. The bath could add stress and push it over the edge or might cause some parasites to fall off the gill tissue to help it breathe and give it a better shot at surviv ing that infestation.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
I have been reading alot on how to get rid of ich for the past day. After a whole day of reading confusing/opinionated threads and the LFS telling me all i needed was a UV sterilizer, i came upon your post that summed everything up clearly. If you know the life cycle of the pest you can beat it easily & nat
Obviously ,if fish have recurrent bouts with it even with realtively minor stress events ,it's in the tank and surviving at some level of density. It only takes one living parasite in a fish to make several hundred in one 10 day life cycle and then with in two weeks those hudndred or two multiply by hundred folds again and so on. Often just introducing new fish, even ich free fish gives the parasites living in the tank enough of a boost to break out and overwhelm even teh partially immune fish which may have survived earlier infestations.
This is how tank transfer works btw,from a post on the Fish Disease forum:
Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset"> Originally Posted by tmz
1. The whole idea does not always work. Ich attacks come in waves. What if a sudden large wave existed and there are already too many attachments on the fish that are still not seen by the naked eyes. In just two days your fish may die.
Nah, you got that wrong too.
At least read up on the basics about the life cycle crytocaryon irritans before trying to get others to follow your pronouncements , proscriptions and prescriptions and deriding others contributions.
The attacks come after (encysted tomites develop into theronts and leave the tomont phase , ie the cyst (after developing there for 3 to 28 days) . The theronts seek a fish to infect and need one within 24 hours before starving. They swim to the fish and infect it. They feed on the fish for about 3 to 7 days and leave as protomonts to form tomonts again and do so in 2 to 18 hours, then encyst as tomonts and form tomites that develop into theronts again.
During the intial infestation by trophonts the fish is often killed or suffers damage to it's gills or wounds that may become infected . Many times fish survive the initia l infestation and succumb to later infestations which are more virulent .
When trophonts leave the fish they are protomonts . They go to the bottom or other surfaces and encyst again to multiply a hundred to two hundredfold and again seek out a fish to feed on as one or two hundred new tophonts.
The only ich in a transfer tank are the trophonts that may come into the tank in or on a fish;no cysts on the bottom to hatch;so, no secondary infection or wave is possible . The fish moves before new trophonts can form.
There is no treatment for the trophonts in/on the fish; Copper and other meds or hyposalinity kill the free swimming phase, ie, theronts ;not embedded parasites or encysted ones. Thus , copper and hypo are designed to prevent secondary infestations after the intial bunch leave the fish.
Tank transfer eliminates secondary infections by abandoning the promonts ,tomonts and tomites before they have time to form into theronts. Drying the tank and equipment effectively sterilizes it by killing the cysts and any other forms of the parasite.
The timing of the teatment, 4 transfers 72 hours each, syncs with the life cycle of cryptocaryon irritans to ensure no parasites remain on or in the fish. Neat simple and natural.
Severely infested fish may get some relief via a fomalin bath, outside the transfer tank which may remove some of the parasites that may be clogging the gills in conjunction with tank transfer . That's a judgement call based on the behavior of the fish in a specific case. The bath could add stress and push it over the edge or might cause some parasites to fall off the gill tissue to help it breathe and give it a better shot at surviv ing that infestation.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
I have been reading alot on how to get rid of ich for the past day. After a whole day of reading confusing/opinionated threads and the LFS telling me all i needed was a UV sterilizer, i came upon your post that summed everything up clearly. If you know the life cycle of the pest you can beat it easily & nat
saltyscotsman
New member
Thank for the info Tom I may need to borrow a small tank after the new year to do the transfer I will give you a call
Tom as always thank you for all the info.
How do you determine how many tanks/bins are appropriate for treatment? I suppose I mean how do you figure how many fish per tank/bin?
You are welcome, Justin
I usually do one to three smaller ( 2 to 3 inches wrasses) to one larger (medium yellow tang 3.5 inches )or so at a time in a ten gallon. I'm using it for new specimens and not an outbreak affecting a whole tank so I've never had more than two transfer tanks running simultaneously.I had new wrasse and some seahorses and was fish sitting for another hobbyist at the time too, so I had to use a 5 gallon bin and a bucket for a wrasse's transfer tank once when I had new seahorses in my ten gallons..
Running several transfer tanks at once for a large fish population could be a lot of work and use a lot of water.
I might consider copper or another treatment method in a case like that but would still prefer transfer for ich.
Species comapatbility could br an issue in a samll tan and a few pvc resting places or disposable bowl of sand for a wrasse are add ons.
The tank is getting a hundred % water turnover every 3 days minimizing ammonia concerns but I add a little ammonia detoxifier after 36 hours as a safety. Usually ,they move from the 10 transfer tanks to a 35 gallon cycled tank for an extra 2 weeks of observation.
Using the transfer approach also affords a nice opportunity for sg acclimation as sg can be started on the low side for new fish and raised incrementally over the 12 days. This obviates the need for drip acclimation and potential ammonia toxicity when fish are left in in the bag water . Once the bag is opened pH rises shifting ammonium NH4 to more toxic NH3.Acclimating the first transfer tank to the temp and sg of the bag water allows a quick transfer right from the bag to the tank and then over the 12 days slow adjustments to these two parameters to match the display tank.
shawna1972
New member
I have always used copper but I really like the tank transfer method tom is ref to. This is going to be my new qt method from now on for any new comers 
good luck with what ever method u choose and don't feel bad you didn't know, I think we have all been in that spot at one point. Again good luck
good luck with what ever method u choose and don't feel bad you didn't know, I think we have all been in that spot at one point. Again good luck
Norm,
Whatever I have that is helpful you can borrow . The ten gallon tansfer tanks are vacant right now. I also have an empty 20 gallon . Feel free to call. I do have an empty clean 40 gallon long that might be helpful .It's 4 ft long by 1 foot wide by aobut 16 inches deep. Offers a nice 4 foot long swimming space with only 40 gallons of water and might be use full fo the surgeon fish's qt time. Happy New Year.
Whatever I have that is helpful you can borrow . The ten gallon tansfer tanks are vacant right now. I also have an empty 20 gallon . Feel free to call. I do have an empty clean 40 gallon long that might be helpful .It's 4 ft long by 1 foot wide by aobut 16 inches deep. Offers a nice 4 foot long swimming space with only 40 gallons of water and might be use full fo the surgeon fish's qt time. Happy New Year.
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