Doesn't really make sense to me ..... But if it works for you. Though if you aren't running the main as a siphon it isn't a Herbie.
Herbie Help
- Thread starter gatsby174
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Doesn't really make sense to me ..... But if it works for you. Though if you aren't running the main as a siphon it isn't a Herbie.
shovelrider
New member
Post a pic already!
I have a 75g with Herbie style drain. I use 1'' pvc for the full siphon and emergency(which is dry). My tank is dead quiet except for a hum from the return pump(Mag7). My full siphon pipe has a true union ball valve for tuning.
View attachment 246939
I have also run the same setup on a 45g with same results
I have a 75g with Herbie style drain. I use 1'' pvc for the full siphon and emergency(which is dry). My tank is dead quiet except for a hum from the return pump(Mag7). My full siphon pipe has a true union ball valve for tuning.
View attachment 246939
I have also run the same setup on a 45g with same results
I have about 7in difference.
I use the word Drain you use the word siphon. It's the same. And it is a Herbie.
Well, you can run a drain as a siphon or as an open channel; which are most definitely not the same. I'd strongly recommend anyone running a Herbie with differential pipe/bulkhead sizes to use the smaller one as the siphon and the larger one as the open channel/emergency. Just doesn't really make any logical sense to do it the other way.
Tyrenlds
Premium Member
Agreed. Smaller for the siphon, larger for the emergency drain.
I too have noticed fluctuating water levels when setting up the herbie on two different tanks. This happens to a lot of people and there really isn't a consensus on why.
My theory; it's the pump. Voltage from municipal power sources will fluctuate slightly throughout the day and I assume this affects power input to the pump. The voltage fluctuation is only noticeable due to the tight balance between siphon and pump. A tiny increase in pump speed will present itself with a raising tank water level over time.
This is the reasoning behind running a constant trickle on the emergency line. You set the top of the emergency drain to the exact level of water you want to maintain in the overflow. You'll end up finding a balance eventually that won't result in a loud trickle. Question; does your overflow piping terminate above or below the sump water level? Bringing the termination under the sump water level will reduce some of that trickling noise you're hearing.
Also wanted to mention... you'll drive yourself nuts watching the water level fluctuate throughout the day. Just try to ignore it for now and soon you'll forget the issue entirely.
I too have noticed fluctuating water levels when setting up the herbie on two different tanks. This happens to a lot of people and there really isn't a consensus on why.
My theory; it's the pump. Voltage from municipal power sources will fluctuate slightly throughout the day and I assume this affects power input to the pump. The voltage fluctuation is only noticeable due to the tight balance between siphon and pump. A tiny increase in pump speed will present itself with a raising tank water level over time.
This is the reasoning behind running a constant trickle on the emergency line. You set the top of the emergency drain to the exact level of water you want to maintain in the overflow. You'll end up finding a balance eventually that won't result in a loud trickle. Question; does your overflow piping terminate above or below the sump water level? Bringing the termination under the sump water level will reduce some of that trickling noise you're hearing.
Also wanted to mention... you'll drive yourself nuts watching the water level fluctuate throughout the day. Just try to ignore it for now and soon you'll forget the issue entirely.
uncleof6
Active member
This is true, however, voltage variation does not affect the speed of an AC Motor, nor the output of a pump driven by such. An AC motor is a constant speed inductive device, and the speed is controlled by the frequency, not the voltage. The frequency sledom varies. This is why a rheostat cannot be used to control an AC motor's speed: it requires a VFD (variable frequency drive.)
It is more likely, that if the pump is varying in speed, it is due to poor maintenance, or other problem with the motor. However, the Herbie drain system is not all that stable, and fluctuations are to be expected. The fluctuation can also be caused by the system not be dialed in close enough. It can often be a very "delicate" adjustment, which a gate valve excels at, and at which a ball valve fails miserably.
Trickle in the dry emergency is a poor practice at the very best. This system was not designed with safety features necessary to have water flowing in both lines. Folks building herbies have a tendancy to overlook the safety guidelines for running a siphon system, (along with other good design concepts) that have been established since long before herbie started his thread—I don't get why that is. It is good common sense, that a pipe with water in it is a plug risk, whether something goes down the line or not. If anything, growth in the line whatever, slows the flow in the dry emergency, even the smallest amount, you will have a flood. It only takes once, unfortunately many are asking to learn the hard way. The idea of a self adjusting drain system was the brain child of BeanAnimal, it was never designed or even thought about in the herbie system, till someone (ground zero) confused the two systems.
A well adjusted herbie is not rock stable, however, it should NOT require attention or show a noticeable flunction on a daily basis. It should only need periodic adjustment, making the use of unsafe techniques without a safety net, pointless.
supra400hptt
Member
My emergency is set at the level of the display with a slight trickle. Drain is about six inches lower with a gate valve at the bottom. Both empty below the water line in the sump. All I do is close down the gate valve until the water starts to trickle over the emergency and I'm done. I've ran it like this for three years and it's as silent as it gets. The trickle is small enough where it makes no noise and with the height at the tank line I get no falling water in the overflow. I don't really see why having a trickle on the emergency is so taboo. That trickle has no bearing on flow in an emergency unless the trickle causes algae growth in the emergency drain (which I have none). Both of my drains are one inch, so with the gate valve closed down balancing flow, I know the one inch emergency with easily handle a complete blockage of the main drain. And it's noisy so I'd know about it (tested).
I'd guess the flow from the return pump is not consistent, causing the fluctuation.
I'd guess the flow from the return pump is not consistent, causing the fluctuation.
uncleof6
Active member
You would be surprised what will settle/grow in a drain line, whether you can see it by causal inspection or not. Alas, it only takes one flood to make a believer out of anyone. Those of us that have seen the floods and damage, came up with the safety guidelines so YOU WON'T have a flood. Whether you choose to heed the advice, or not, is up to you. The guidelines are simple common sense, from direct experience.
SGT_York
New member
All the floods I have seen were poorly designed and when the main line was clogged the backup couldn't handle the flow. I run the dry emergency with the occasional trickle which I am comfortable with as my overflow weirs have lids that block light and livestock. The only risk I can see would be from sponges growing larger in the emergency line but at only a trickle none have grown inside the line in 18 months.
So I concur with uncleof6 in that the Bean Animal modified with a gate valve is a vastly superior setup and I will certainly be going C2C on my future 180. But for now my Reef Ready 120 demands a herbie (plugging holes, removing overflows, and drilling new ones is a ridiculous thought) I will argue that a properly thought out design that is maintained occasionally won't flood, however the specifics to accomplish this are difficult to communicate through a forum so err on the side of caution.
Also a herbie in no way shape or form uses a siphon as a drain. A siphon by definition requires lifting (BA's setup lifts the water so it is a siphon) a herbie is just a constricted gravity drain. But for clarity I will continue to use the term siphon for a herbie drain.
Plumb your emergency line slightly below the weir, if you do it higher then you will raise the water in your display emptying the sump section. combined with an ATO this could be disastrous.
So I concur with uncleof6 in that the Bean Animal modified with a gate valve is a vastly superior setup and I will certainly be going C2C on my future 180. But for now my Reef Ready 120 demands a herbie (plugging holes, removing overflows, and drilling new ones is a ridiculous thought) I will argue that a properly thought out design that is maintained occasionally won't flood, however the specifics to accomplish this are difficult to communicate through a forum so err on the side of caution.
Also a herbie in no way shape or form uses a siphon as a drain. A siphon by definition requires lifting (BA's setup lifts the water so it is a siphon) a herbie is just a constricted gravity drain. But for clarity I will continue to use the term siphon for a herbie drain.
Plumb your emergency line slightly below the weir, if you do it higher then you will raise the water in your display emptying the sump section. combined with an ATO this could be disastrous.
Also a herbie in no way shape or form uses a siphon as a drain. A siphon by definition requires lifting (BA's setup lifts the water so it is a siphon) a herbie is just a constricted gravity drain. But for clarity I will continue to use the term siphon for a herbie drain.
Agreed SGT York....
Agreed SGT York....
IMO this is your main problem, ditch the 1.5" piece of pipe in the overflow and just use a 1" piece. You've only got a 1" bulkhead anyway. Then use your gate valve (or good quality ball valve, not the crappy schd 40 ball valves from Lowes, Home Depot, etc) to dial it in.
uncleof6
Active member
By the dictionary definition, you are correct. A siphon is defined as "lifting" water. However, your assesment of the bean being a siphon that "lifts" water is inaccurate. Also, a Durso is a gravity drain. We use the term "siphon" to describe a mode of flow throw a gravity drain. That mode being no air in the line, as opposed to an open channel gravity drain, that has air in the drain line. It may interest some to know, that the drain system Herbie modified to fit smaller corner overflows, was configured in the same manner as the BA.
The BA has a down turned elbow. However, if the system is adjusted so that water is "lifted" up to the weir (where the water heads down in the tee,) the water level in the overflow would be below the horizontal portion of the down turned elbow. With the water level that low, from experience, the drain will suck air, (create a vortex) thus preventing a "siphon" from forming anyway, at most reasonable flow rates.
In a properly adjusted BA, the water level in the overflow is above the "weir," generally the ~top of the down turned elbow, so it is head pressure moving water over the weir, and down, in other words gravity is driving the drain. But water is not lifted (because the water level is already above the weir,) rather pulled through the system. A subtle difference. Functionally, the herbie and the bean are the same: phyics and things to avoid apply to both.
It is the thinking that they are somehow different, that causes a great deal of confusion at times. The only difference in the two is the inclusion of an open channel; a third standpipe, and the herbie is most often mis-interpreted.
SGT_York
New member
I agree with some noted exceptions.
Most of the BA's I have seen the water level in the overflow was less than the top of the siphon 90 not the bottom of the horizontal. (I see you clarified in the bottom so I agree) So there is lifting in some, that is why some take a while to "start up" herbie's or non-siphon BA's don't have a start up time they just wait for the water to reach above the air suction or vortex level then purge the air. The BA's that run a true siphon need to wait prior to the siphon kicking in becasue the air needs to be purged before any lift can begin. Using a BA that doesn't siphon is advantageous which is what Uncle has.
The original BA pics have both the siphon and open channel at the same height so he used a true siphon. The modified BA lowered the siphon and improved the design.
Most of the BA's I have seen the water level in the overflow was less than the top of the siphon 90 not the bottom of the horizontal. (I see you clarified in the bottom so I agree) So there is lifting in some, that is why some take a while to "start up" herbie's or non-siphon BA's don't have a start up time they just wait for the water to reach above the air suction or vortex level then purge the air. The BA's that run a true siphon need to wait prior to the siphon kicking in becasue the air needs to be purged before any lift can begin. Using a BA that doesn't siphon is advantageous which is what Uncle has.
The original BA pics have both the siphon and open channel at the same height so he used a true siphon. The modified BA lowered the siphon and improved the design.
