Herbie problem

[C4DC]

I run my drains to a tee and then to a sock in the sump. Have an ATO in the sump and it works well. The problem is the filter sock. I like to change them 2-3 times per week and as they get dirty, the level in the sock rises which changes the effective water level for the siphon. This means I'm constantly having to change the valve settings, listen to water slurp. overflow, etc. I need the sock to control the micro bubbles or I'd be open to going without it. I did try a small new garbage can in the sump for the drain to dump into with a higher level than the sump for bubble control, but that didn't go well (bubbles and noise). Any ideas?

 

[zangmann]

If you have a drain with full siphon you shouldn't be getting any bubbles. Is the tee before your ball valve? Try moving it to after the ball valve if that's the case.

 

[C4DC]

The gate valve is after the tee and would be difficult to move to before. I'd have to buy 2 more and cut everything apart and I think I'd still have the same problem of the sock giving me a rising level. The bubbles are coming from the wier overflow; the water drops about 1 inch and picks up some turbulence and bubbles get sucked right down the drain. Guess they get broken up on the way down because they exit as very fine bubbles in the sump. This is why I need the sock to "filter" them out.

I could adjust the valves to change to overflow to be riding really high to keep the turbulence down, then eliminate the sock. This wouldn't give much overflow protection though; the water would be about 1/4" below the emergency drains. Worth a try to experiment though.

 

[reefermad619]

So when you say your drains are going to A "T", do you mean both siphon and emergency, or do you have dual overflows in your tank and are running 2 siphons together?

 

[MadBeach79]

How about deleting the sock out of the sump, and building baffles to control the bubbles before they get to the pump? That would keep your sump water level constant, your siphon wont see any backpressure and you wouldn't have to adjust the gate valve as often.
Let me know if you need any help with that.

Danny

 

[C4DC]

So when you say your drains are going to A "T", do you mean both siphon and emergency, or do you have dual overflows in your tank and are running 2 siphons together?

The main drains go to a Tee, then the gate valve for adjustment. The emergency drains are each independent.

 

[C4DC]

How about deleting the sock out of the sump, and building baffles to control the bubbles before they get to the pump? That would keep your sump water level constant, your siphon wont see any backpressure and you wouldn't have to adjust the gate valve as often.
Let me know if you need any help with that.

Danny

From what the designer of the sump eluded to (John at FAOIS, a very reputable local store) was that with the speed/amount of flow going through the sump, the bubbles wouldn't filter out.

(I thought) Most sumps with baffles aren't designed for a high volume of water and it would overflow the baffles (close together type), or flow, but be ineffective at bubble removal (wider spaced baffles).

I should have had you over when I lived in Mad Beach, but moved a couple weeks ago.

 

[shaggss]

If you are running the herbie correctly you should have no bubbles.

1. to confirm there are two main drains? one one emergency? this is more like the Bean overflow if so. With a herbie there is usually only one main drain and one emergency. The main drain acts as a syphon via a gate valve. you close the valve until a full syphon is made. therefore there should be no bubbles.

2. the tee is before the gate valve?

3. both main drains (if there is two) stand pipes are the same height in the weir? and both are reaching full syphon?

4. is there any water going down your emergency drain(s)?

5. how far underwater in the sump are the main drain(s)? For best results it(they) should be about an inch under the water.

6. there should be about six inches difference in the height of the main drains and the emergency drains. Main drains being lower of course! this will allow some fine tuning.

I have run filter socks with my herbie with no issues at all. To me it sounds like the main drains are not reaching full syphon. try closing the gate valve a little more. this will raise the water level in the weir and hopefully stop the bubbles from there too.

HTH!

cheers:beer:

 

[C4DC]

If you are running the herbie correctly you should have no bubbles.

1. to confirm there are two main drains? one one emergency? this is more like the Bean overflow if so. With a herbie there is usually only one main drain and one emergency. The main drain acts as a syphon via a gate valve. you close the valve until a full syphon is made. therefore there should be no bubbles.

The tank has 2 overflows, each with a main and an overflow. The mains are Teed and the gate follows that into the sump. The emergency's are each seperate.

2. the tee is before the gate valve?

Before


3. both main drains (if there is two) stand pipes are the same height in the weir? and both are reaching full syphon?

Yes to both. But... The one side has to have a larger dia drain beacuse that pipe is longer. Took me a while to balance both overflows to the same level, but for the most part, this is balanced.

4. is there any water going down your emergency drain(s)?

No

5. how far underwater in the sump are the main drain(s)? For best results it(they) should be about an inch under the water.


Its about an inch or so with a fresh sock, but increases about 8" during the socks 3 days in there. I believe this increase is where my main problem is.


6. there should be about six inches difference in the height of the main drains and the emergency drains. Main drains being lower of course! this will allow some fine tuning.

I'd say there is about 4". If the main was lower it would be harder for the bubbles to reach the inlet.

I have run filter socks with my herbie with no issues at all. To me it sounds like the main drains are not reaching full syphon.

The water level in the overflow is 3" over the drian inlet. There is no vortex sucking air or anything like that.


try closing the gate valve a little more. this will raise the water level in the weir and hopefully stop the bubbles from there too.

I'm an inch from the emergency as it is.


HTH!

cheers:beer:

I can get the system balanced for about a day at a time. I just need the sock to catch the bubbles, and the sock doesn't allow for a consistant drain output level which changes the parameters of the system balance. I either need to find a way to get rid of the bubbles like lowering the drain inlet level or coming up with a way to deal with the bubbles in the sump other than a sock. I have thought of trying to cut holes in the sock so it doesn't build up and overflow so quickly or lowering its level below the mount so it is always overflowing the top a little. The socks aren't visually getting very dirty BTW.
I'll take some pics of the setup later and post them up. It has been running like this for a year, I'm just tried of constantly adjusting it.

 

[sushibug]

maybe the micron # on the sock is too small?

 

[MadBeach79]

From what the designer of the sump eluded to (John at FAOIS, a very reputable local store) was that with the speed/amount of flow going through the sump, the bubbles wouldn't filter out.

(I thought) Most sumps with baffles aren't designed for a high volume of water and it would overflow the baffles (close together type), or flow, but be ineffective at bubble removal (wider spaced baffles).

I should have had you over when I lived in Mad Beach, but moved a couple weeks ago.

Here is a picture of the sump I had in an old 120g tank I used to have running. I was running a single Reeflo Snapper pump for the system. Pushing about 1200gph-1300gph through one sock, my emergency drains went to the sock in the back, the chiller got about 700gph and about 100gph through the phosban reactor and the carbon tower. The baffles would handle the micro bubbles, you might want to silicone some temporary baffles and see if that works, if nothing else you can just silicone them in and if they don't help, you can go back remove them and scrape the silicone off the acryilic.

 

[C4DC]

I was messing around with the overflow level and had it cranked as high as it would go with no emergency overflow to eliminate the turbulence bubbles in the overflow and I was still getting a ton of micro bubbles. Put my hand over the out flow and they stopped... Turns out the pipe coming out of the gate valve into the sock (which i didn't cement so I can move the sump) was sucking in air as the water rushed past. Put some caulk on there and no more bubbles! Got it running near full speed now and it is quiet as can be! Going to have to fine tune it I'm sure, but I'm going to try it for a while with no sock and see how things go. Going to have to figure out a way to stop the vortex from the increased flow in the pump inlet too. I'm going to keep all your suggestions for future use if i decide to use a sock again. Thanks guys! :beer:

 

[shaggss]

glad u got it sorted. also having an accurate ATO so the water level in the return section stays stable is the key to the balance. I have not touched mine since I set it up 7 months ago! enjoy your new found silence and bubble free DT!