Herbie Questions

[Reefer PT]

Planning on drilling a 50gal tall and just want to go over the basics.
1. I have seen designs with the main siphon line and 1 open line and one with 2 open lines. If I am using 1" pipe the siphon should handle 900gph and the emergency should just trickle. I'm using a pump that puts out 950 GPH at 0 head pressure and 600gph at 4 feet. Should I bother with the 2nd open line?

2. Overflow box, Should I go with the 1800gph that is 8.5"long or the 2500 gph which is 12" long to put more space between the holes for the strength the back pane of the tank? The price difference is like $20 so no biggie.

3. Should the return line go through the overflow box or not? (just worried about too many holes in a small space)

4. Should I silicone on a piece of 1x lumber under the holes and running down the to the bottom of the back of the tank to attach pipe clams to or just directly silicone pipe clamps to the tank?

Thanks
Dave

 

[uncleof6]

Planning on drilling a 50gal tall and just want to go over the basics.
1. I have seen designs with the main siphon line and 1 open line and one with 2 open lines. If I am using 1" pipe the siphon should handle 900gph and the emergency should just trickle. I'm using a pump that puts out 950 GPH at 0 head pressure and 600gph at 4 feet. Should I bother with the 2nd open line?

The herbie consists of a single siphon, and a single DRY emergency. There is no channel with a "trickle of flow" in the herbie design. This was taken from Bean's system to obtain self adjustment (because the herbie is inherently not stable) at the cost of eliminating the safety of the system.

2. Overflow box, Should I go with the 1800gph that is 8.5"long or the 2500 gph which is 12" long to put more space between the holes for the strength the back pane of the tank? The price difference is like $20 so no biggie.

For 950gph, a single overflow with 14" effective length (e.g. without teeth) minimum, longer is better. Commercial boxes are horribly underrated. (1800gph = 27" min; 2500gph = 38" min.) This directly affects the surface skimming/surface renewal, which directly affects the health of your system.

3. Should the return line go through the overflow box or not? (just worried about too many holes in a small space)

I would not, many would not. Run a single return line up over the back of the tank. Better performance.

4. Should I silicone on a piece of 1x lumber under the holes and running down the to the bottom of the back of the tank to attach pipe clams to or just directly silicone pipe clamps to the tank?

No. Secure your support either to the tank stand or the wall. You don't really want to support something to prevent breaking the material you wish to keep from breaking, with a material that will also break.

Thanks
Dave

 

[salajander]

the herbie consists of a single siphon, and a single dry emergency. There is no channel with a "trickle of flow" in the herbie design. This was taken from bean's system to obtain self adjustment (because the herbie is inherently not stable) at the cost of somewhat reducing the safety of the system at the cost of more vigilant care.

ftfy

 

[uncleof6]

ftfy

The herbie consists of a single siphon, and a single DRY emergency. There is no channel with a "trickle of flow" in the herbie design. This was taken from Bean's system to obtain self adjustment (because the herbie is inherently not stable) at the cost of eliminating the safety of the system.

With flow in both pipes, e.g. the use of an open channel, there is no emergency backup. The system becomes less reliable. Folks choose; they can choose how to run their system, but that is the bottom line. When it does plug, the safety decrease is anything but "slightly" and all the vigilante care in the world does no good. My goal is to prevent folks from having to learn the hard way as others before them have; some however, can only learn the hard way, and that is unfortunate.

I have no idea what "ftfy" means, however it would seem that editing other's comments is a bit inappropriate.

 

[salajander]

Fixed That For You. It's a meme common in other parts of the internet, though perhaps not much around here. Generally it's done as you see: someone edits the comment in question in some obvious manner (hence the bold), and follows with FTFY. Anyhoo...

You said "eliminating" the safety. That's incorrect. It reduces it, of course, but in no way does it eliminate it, especially with somewhat increased vigilance and maintenance.

You want a nearly completely safe and non-finicky system? Bean. Safe but finicky? Fully dry Herbie. Somewhat less safe and non-finicky? Herbie with a trickle.

 

[salajander]

Actually, I'm sure this is :deadhorse1: territory, so I'll make this my last post on this thread about the matter.

 

[blueramSeattle]

1. The emergency should be bigger than the syphon. Do you have a predrilled "rr" aquarium with two holes at the bottom of a tall overflow box?

2. If you are adding a shallow overflow box (as indicated by the 2nd point) you can just drill three holes and make a bean animal.

3. Over the back, hole for syphon break (test ocassionally) and no check valves.

4. Support is generally good particularly if it is sturdy and out of sight.

 

[blueramSeattle]

I like a 95% syphon (5% going down the wet standby) because it keeps the water level high in the overflow so the splashing of falling water is minimized. I did get to balance like 1/2" below the emergency for a month once with a ball valve. To each their own...

 

[uncleof6]

Fixed That For You. It's a meme common in other parts of the internet, though perhaps not much around here. Generally it's done as you see: someone edits the comment in question in some obvious manner (hence the bold), and follows with FTFY. Anyhoo...

You said "eliminating" the safety. That's incorrect. It reduces it, of course, but in no way does it eliminate it, especially with somewhat increased vigilance and maintenance.

You want a nearly completely safe and non-finicky system? Bean. Safe but finicky? Fully dry Herbie. Somewhat less safe and non-finicky? Herbie with a trickle.

I don't use internet short hand, except in jest. The post is correct as it stands, and is based on experience with open channel occlusions (Dursos,) and floods from siphon systems. The experience predates Herbie's thread by many years. From that, and others, came the "rule" never run a siphon without a DRY emergency. Herbie knew that rule:

"So I came up with a VERY IMPORTANT SAFETY FEATURE!!!!! I took out the rigid pump output line inside the overflow box and set it up as a higher (just below the intake overflow box "teeth") safety return plumbed directly to the sump, above the water a little bit. It should be empty at all times unless something is out of wack with the main return line!"

If it is ever unclear whether a Herbie (or two pipe siphon system) has an open channel, or a pipe with a trickle of flow, that is your answer.

Bean was also aware:

"This system MUST use the (3) standpipes that are described above. The emergency standpipe is a CRITICAL part of this design. Omitting the emergency standpipe is asking for a flood!"

Direct quotes, unedited.

Having water running in the dry emergency, eliminates the safety backup's role: flood prevention. An open channel's probability of plugging is the same as any other drain line plugging. The odds of a dry pipe plugging is astronomical, until after it is called on to prevent a flood. The reduction in safety is not "slight" by any definition. Because such an occlusion is often instantaneous, vigilance and maintenance become irrelevant to the immediate problem.