Herbtana with Hypo to treat ICH

[djtuzik]

Herbtana with Hypo to treat ICH, am I going to cause more harm then good with these two treatments used at the same time?

 

[Deinonych]

Herbtana is not an effective treatment for Cryptocaryon (ich). Hypo is difficult to pull off and only affects the free swimming stage. I personally recommend tank transfer method (TTM) for eradication of the parasite as it targets the predictable feeding stage and prevents reinfection if executed correctly.

 

[djtuzik]

why is Hypo difficult to pull off if you monitor salinity daily?

 

[Dmorty217]

why is Hypo difficult to pull off if you monitor salinity daily?

It doesn't work for all strains of ich first and foremost. Also it's the most stressful method you can use

 

[Deinonych]

Because there is always a degree of error in the measuring instruments (+/- 0.001 for even the most accurate), and there are known strains of Cryptocaryon which are resistant to hyposalinity.

 

[snorvich]

Good advice above.

 

[ThRoewer]

Well, I have to disagree.

Getting the salinity right is easy and not as sensitive as some here think. Anything below 16ppt should be effective. You just don't want to get lower that the blood salinity of your fish which is between 11 and 12 ppt.
So if you adjust to 14 ppt you have enough room for measurement inaccuracies both ways.
All you need is a salinity refractometer which is calibrated with RO or distilled water.

As for the Taiwanese low salinity strains that were observed on farmed food fish in brackish waters - I kind of doubt that these have made it into aquarium tanks. Just because something exists doesn't mean it is wide spread.
Also if you have it you will know it after the first week of treatment because the fish will continue to show new nodules. In that case I would add TTM to the treatment plan.

Hyposalinity targets the same tomont stage as TTM - it prevents the protomont from encysting and becoming a tomont and therefore from dividing and reinfecting the fish while TTM removes the encysted tomont stage by moving the fish to a clean or (hopefully) diligently disinfected tank.

My experience with hyposalinity is pretty good and fish should clear up within a week, usually faster. After a week all existing spots should have gone and no new should appear.
A treatment of two weeks should be the minimum, but keeping the fish in hyposaline conditions for a month should be no problem and would be my recommendation.
If doing only 2 weeks I would recommended to transfer the fish to a new or disinfected tank when raising the salinity slowly back up.

 

[snorvich]

Well, I have to disagree.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on hyposalinity ever being the treatment of choice for cryptocaryon irritans.

I would choose TTM, CP, or copper in that order for treatment of cryptocaryon irritans.

If forced to use hyposalinity, I would do it for 4 weeks minimum.

 

[Dmorty217]

Well, I have to disagree.

Getting the salinity right is easy and not as sensitive as some here think. Anything below 16ppt should be effective. You just don't want to get lower that the blood salinity of your fish which is between 11 and 12 ppt.
So if you adjust to 14 ppt you have enough room for measurement inaccuracies both ways.
All you need is a salinity refractometer which is calibrated with RO or distilled water.

As for the Taiwanese low salinity strains that were observed on farmed food fish in brackish waters - I kind of doubt that these have made it into aquarium tanks. Just because something exists doesn't mean it is wide spread.
Also if you have it you will know it after the first week of treatment because the fish will continue to show new nodules. In that case I would add TTM to the treatment plan.

Hyposalinity targets the same tomont stage as TTM - it prevents the protomont from encysting and becoming a tomont and therefore from dividing and reinfecting the fish while TTM removes the encysted tomont stage by moving the fish to a clean or (hopefully) diligently disinfected tank.

My experience with hyposalinity is pretty good and fish should clear up within a week, usually faster. After a week all existing spots should have gone and no new should appear.
A treatment of two weeks should be the minimum, but keeping the fish in hyposaline conditions for a month should be no problem and would be my recommendation.
If doing only 2 weeks I would recommended to transfer the fish to a new or disinfected tank when raising the salinity slowly back up.

You always advocate for hypo for some reason. How much have you used TTM or CP or cupramine? I have never used hypo since it's at the bottom of a list of 4 known methods of disease control...For someone who is new at dealing with disease hypo should not advocated

 

[Deinonych]

Hyposalinity targets the same tomont stage as TTM - it prevents the protomont from encysting and becoming a tomont and therefore from dividing and reinfecting the fish while TTM removes the encysted tomont stage by moving the fish to a clean or (hopefully) diligently disinfected tank.

Can you cite evidence to support this? My understanding was that hypo targeted the theront stage, not protomont.

I still prefer TTM over every other treatment for Crypto.

 

[ThRoewer]

Hyposalinity therapy

Hyposalinity therapy has numerous advantages over copper-based medications (Bartelme, 2001c). This method does not suppress immune functions such as phagocytic activity. Antibiotics can be used in conjunction with hyposalinity therapy. Some antibiotics are more effective, or a lower dose is required when the salinity is less than that of natural seawater. The salinity only needs to be checked once a day while administrating treatment. Chemical filters such as carbon and Poly Filterâ„¢ can be used when employing hyposalinity therapy.

An accurate means for measuring the salinity is crucial when treating fish with hyposalinity. Swing-arm type hydrometers are notoriously inaccurate. A refractometer, or lab grade, large, glass hydrometer is recommended. Alkalinity and pH tend to fall in diluted saltwater. Check these parameters daily and add a buffer as necessary to maintain the pH between 8.1 and 8.3. Do not expose elasmobranches, invertebrates, live rock, or live sand to treatment with hyposalinity. This method is safe for the bacteria that perform biological filtration, at least if the salinity is not dropped too rapidly. Make two water changes per day for two days, reducing the salinity about 5ppt per water change.

Maintaining the salinity at 16ppt or less has proven to be a highly effective treatment for cryptocaryonosis (Bartelme, 2001a, b). However, this may change with if low salinity variants of Cryptocaryon irritans become common or widespread. The salinity (not to be confused with specific gravity) must be maintained consistently at 16ppt or less for the entire duration of treatment. I suggest 14ppt to allow for any fluctuations in the salinity during therapy while providing some margin for error.

Treatment should continue for a minimum of three weeks after a therapeutic salinity level has been reached. Unlike most other forms of treatment for cryptocaryonosis, hyposalinity does not target the "free-swimming" or theront stage. Hyposalinity therapy works by interrupting the life cycle at the tomont stage. Tomonts are destroyed by hyposaline conditions, thus preventing re-infection.

Teleost reef fish appear to adapt well to hyposaline conditions. Hyposalinity was also reported as an effective treatment for cryptocaryonosis by Angelo Colorni of Israel Oceanographic and Limnological Research Ltd 1985 (Colorni, 1985). A report in Drum and Croaker stated: "We now have experience that proves that a wide variety of teleosts can live quite comfortably at ½ salinity (1.010) for extended periods of up to 2 to 3 months (Goodlett & Ichinotsubo, 1997). Emperor angelfish Pomacanthus imperator were the subjects of one such study. They were kept in salinities as low as 7 ppt for 30 days without any apparent ill effects (Woo & Chung, 1995).

 

[Dmorty217]

Well 1995 was 20 years ago before the existence of TTM, CP used on fish and cupramine so I would advocate this if it was the year 2000... If hypo is so proven then why aren't zoos using it like they use CP and I would suspect TTM for some?

 

[Deinonych]

Thanks for the reference, ThRoewer.

 

[ThRoewer]

I have used hyposalinity successfully and it is my first treatment of choice because it is easy and simple.
All I got to do is check the salinity with a refractometer once or twice a day and refill water to a previously marked level. I would say someone who can't get that right should reconsider having a reef tank.

TTM would be my second choice but preferably as a prophylactic measure. Though then I would most likely combine it also with hypo for several reasons.

I don't speak against TTM but if you do it with only two tanks and sets of equipment and don't disinfect properly it may fail as well. The same goes if you go over the 72 h limit.
Cross contamination is also a risk that shouldn't be underestimated.
It also requires quite an amount of water which has to be prepare and stored.
And it is pretty labor intensive.
So I'm not sure if it is the right method for beginners or people with limited space and resources. For me it's a space and water issue.
On top of all it requires handling the fish a lot which is kind of stressful to more sensitive or weakened fish.
In my opinion TTM - while very effective when done right - has quite a few possibilities to fail due to human error or sloppiness.

CP is risky because normal aquarists have not access to the equipment required to measure it's presence or concentration. And as it was posted in another thread here even the "good" CP may be metabolized by bacteria or other things that are out of our immediate control. Therefore any treatment with it is somewhat a gamble if you have the reducing factor in your system.
And then you have the issue that some fish can't handle it or stop eating.
The benefit I see in CP is that you may use it in a FOWLR display tank.

As for copper - It's a toxin I would use only as the last resort and only against velvet but for sure never against Cryptocaryon where hypo, TTM or a combination of both are much more effective.


Most of the Cryptocaryon research goes back quite some time. 20 years is not that much.

TTM and hyposalinity treatments go back way longer - they were just not widespread known or advertised because of communication limits (no internet back then) and because they don't require supplements that can be sold to hobby aquarists.
And while TTM is effective for public aquaria and hobby aquarists it isn't a feasible option for large scale fish farms which are the main customers of Cryptocaryon research.

I also wouldn't take zoos or public aquaria as the gold standard as many of them do many things wrong and kill more fish than even the bloodiest beginner. I have that from a source in Quality Marin - and they know who they sell to.

 

[Deinonych]

All I got to do is check the salinity with a refractometer once or twice a day and refill water to a previously marked level. I would say someone who can't get that right should reconsider having a reef tank.

For me, that's much more work than transferring a fish every three days, and cleaning the minimal equipment associated. But hey, different strokes for different folks.

 

[ThRoewer]

For me, that's much more work than transferring a fish every three days, and cleaning the minimal equipment associated. But hey, different strokes for different folks.

Well, both methods are effective and have their pros and cons and having a choice/alternative is always good.

If TTM is easier for you than hypo I won't try to convince you to change.

But I think it is good to explain to people all the options and let them chose which fits their abilities, means and needs best.
There is not really a "one size fits all" treatment because all cases have their own complications.

I agree that TTM should be in most cases the first choice as preventive measure for new fish (combined with PraziPro and formalin dips to cover all the bases).
But for a full blown Cryptocaryon outbreak with a lot of fish it may not be the most practical method.

 

[Deinonych]

But for a full blown Cryptocaryon outbreak with a lot of fish it may not be the most practical method.

Definitely agree 100% on this point. For a full-blown outbreak with lots of fish, hypo would be the way to go (especially in a large tank).