Hey newbie !!! Stop and read this !!!

CuzzA

Active member
I'm going to be brutally honest with you. Everyday I come on Reef Central I see a new thread by a new member about how you have done a hack job on your tank. Usually with the equipment setup itself, but most often it's the fact that you fail to do any research.

The result is YOU kill off a few or 10 fish and another dozen or so corals before you finally come to your senses and start to research and learn what it takes to take part in a hobby like this or you simply drop out of the hobby altogether. Which for the sake of the animals is probably a good thing. However, collectively you all have done your damage.

First, let me tell you this thread isn't a "How to Setup a Ornamental Marine System", that's already been done and if you "research" you'll find that information. No, this is a thread on "How to be a Successful Ornamental Marine Hobbyist."

There's some questions you need to ask yourself.

1) Do I have the money to partake in an expensive hobby like this?

This hobby isn't cheap. We're not collecting stamps. We're collecting fragile marine organisms that require expensive equipment and consumable products to insure that these animals not just survive, but grow. If you're scraping every little dime together to buy products, you're doing yourself a disservice. Hobby money is excess money you have after bills are paid and savings have been made. So before you consider getting into this hobby you need to make damn sure you can afford it. I'm sure everyone would love a ornamental marine system in their living room, but for many they just can't afford it. There is nothing wrong with being humble and realizing you simply can't afford a hobby like this. If a fish tank is a must, setup a freshwater tank. There's nothing wrong with freshwater and it will at a minimum prepare you when you do have some money to transition over to the saltwater side of the hobby. Don't be ignorant or selfish and force the impossible. If you have to wait two weeks to save up money for salt mix, don't get into this hobby. You will fail.

2) Do I have the time to commit to a hobby like this?

A hobby is a way to spend your excess time for personal enjoyment. Well this hobby not only requires a lot of time, it's also a permanent "COMMITMENT." This is not your stamp collection that can sit on the back burner for weeks or months. Plain and simple, it's a job! Albeit a fun and rewarding job, it's still a job nonetheless. It is going to require daily attention. The way you design your setup will definitely dictate how easy or not it is to complete these daily tasks. But you need to recognize how much time is involved. From feeding, to cleaning glass, to dosing, to water changes, to maintaining equipment, to replacing media, etc. If your spouse or significant other is already complaining that you don't spend enough time with them, this hobby is a sure way to help send you to the front of the line at divorce court or your local watering hole while you drown yourself in 12 ounces of sorrow wondering why they left you. And let's not forget about your other commitments. You know, like raising your children. The bottom line is, does your schedule afford enough time everyday to maintain a marine system? If not, this hobby isn't for you and you will fail.

3) Am I willing to do the research required to start and maintain a ornamental marine system?

To the average person that walks in a local fish store they see saltwater and fish and think, "Oh how simple, water and fish, I can do this." NO! It's not that simple. If you're on here asking why do my fish keep dying and we ask you how did you cycle your tank or did you quarantine them and your reply is, "What's that?" My guess is the answer to the question is, no. You need to spend a significant amount of time reading what it takes to have a successful system. This hobby is full of challenges, even for the seasoned hobbyist and if you don't have the basic education of a marine environment you are going to fail. Again, I'm not going to detail what the marine environment is, that's already been done. It's your responsibility to seek out that information and educate yourself. I can assure you your time spent in this hobby will be much more rewarding if you have the knowledge and can be proactive to your system rather than reactive. I cringe every time I see a "ID This" thread and the corresponding picture is a pineapple sponge or a vermited snail, etc. This tells me you have not done your research. At the end of the day, if you're not willing to do the research, you're going to fail.

4) Am I willing to learn from others and accept the information I have gathered?

This seems like a no brainier, but I constantly see new hobbyist unwilling to heed the advice of those with experience. Dammit, if we tell you tap water isn't going to work in a marine system or a blue hippo tang is not suitable in your 12" cube or that large angel is going to eat that clam, you need to listen and act accordingly to that advice. Check your selfish know it all ego at the login screen. Their are seasoned hobbyist with decades of experience that are here to help you. Watching you write them off like they know nothing because so and so said this at Petco or you're just too damn stubborn to listen or admit you're wrong is only going to do yourself a disservice and you're going to fail. Many people have already made the mistakes your making. If you do #3 in this thread and accept that information (aka, willingness to learn) your chances of success in this hobby are going to increase substantially. You are not going to change an animals instinct, you are not going to change the laws of hydrodynamics, nor are you going to change the laws of physics, etc. If you're going to try and prove us and nature wrong, you are going to fail.

5) Last but not least. Do I understand the consequences of my actions in this hobby?

This hobby involves LIFE. Delicate life. Limited life. The fact that some of you look at these animals as just trophies in a tank sitting on a stand is going to hurt not only the existence of the hobby, but the existence of the species themselves. There is not an unlimited supply of these animals. We are not capable of breeding them like cats and dogs. Every time I see you fail at the first 4 questions in this thread, the result is you have unnecessarily killed these animals. Our hobby already has a public image problem and you're thread about how all your fish died a week after you added them to your two week old tank is just fueling the fire for law makers to impose more regulations upon us, to outright bans. You need to change your perception of captive marine life. You wouldn't go buy a dog and keep it in a 2 foot cage for the rest of its life. You wouldn't buy a dog and not get it its shots. You wouldn't buy a dog and feed it lettuce. You wouldn't (shouldn't) buy a dog without the commitment to keep it as long as it lives. The same goes for our marine animals. They are pets, not inanimate objects, not trophies. If YOU make the DECISION to BUY a marine animal YOU are making a COMMITMENT and now have full RESPONSIBILITY to insure that it LIVES! We can insure that this hobby is here for our kids and grand kids, but that is only going to happen if you understand sustainability. The thinking that if one fish dies, I'll just buy another is flawed. The thinking needs to be, "I'm going to do everything possible to insure this animal will not only survive, but thrive and live a complete full life while under my care." If not, not only are you going to fail, but your going to fail all of us, including the species we love.

In conclusion, I ask that you ask yourself these 5 simple questions. And if you can't honestly answer yes to all of them, choose a different hobby.
 
Number 5 is the whole reason I troll this forum. There are some that do not take advice from those of us that have been there, but if I can help just a few animals make it, I am happy with that.

It is sad when we see people that will not listen, and as a result, put the delicate lives in their tanks at risk.

Good post, bud
 
Just to help give some insight from a newb myself.

Once all my research was done and I got my tank up and running, I found I was absent from asking so many questions on this forum. I try to help a little every now and then with what I have learned through my own experience, but most of my knowledge comes from reading other threads (some of which have been around pre-2010's)

All my questions were answered by using the "search" function on this forum instead of a pleading thread which I'm sure annoys the ones giving advice that see it everyday.
 
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If you're scraping every little dime together to buy products, you're doing yourself a disservice.

I agree - to a point. There are several levels of reefkeeping, from FOWLR to full blown SPS. Expense is proportional to the level.

I just want to make sure that you don't discourage the teenager that wants to start slow with a fish, some sand and LR and PC lighting that he can't afford to entertain this hobby. You would be surprised how many kids are on here learning. Then again, most of these teens have more disposable income than we do, lol.
 
I agree - to a point. There are several levels of reefkeeping, from FOWLR to full blown SPS. Expense is proportional to the level.

I just want to make sure that you don't discourage the teenager that wants to start slow with a fish, some sand and LR and PC lighting that he can't afford to entertain this hobby. You would be surprised how many kids are on here learning. Then again, most of these teens have more disposable income than we do, lol.

I totally agree with the OP with the exception above. It does not cost that much to put together a mid-sized softy tank, although at that cost level you could put together a really nice planted FW tank.
 
I always tell friends who want to start a SW tank to do at least a year of research. Before my first tank I started 10 years ago. I read everything I could and studied everything. It took me about year of reading and asking questions with LFS to make me feel comfortable enough to start a tank. Then after my 5 year break. What did I do again, another year of research before I started another little tank 3 years ago.
 
I agree - to a point. There are several levels of reefkeeping, from FOWLR to full blown SPS. Expense is proportional to the level.

I just want to make sure that you don't discourage the teenager that wants to start slow with a fish, some sand and LR and PC lighting that he can't afford to entertain this hobby. You would be surprised how many kids are on here learning. Then again, most of these teens have more disposable income than we do, lol.

Indeed. I understand your point. And certainly there are different levels of expense and commitment depending on the setup one chooses. However, I am trying to discourage people who aren't capable or willing to research and learn how to be successful in this hobby. Yes, a teenager using allowance, or lawn mowing income, etc. can setup and maintain a simple FOWLR based on the products you described, but there's more to it than that. For example, a prerequisite to having a display tank is a quarantine tank. Right now at any given time you can probably find 5 threads on the first page of this forum and the cause of their pleas for help were they did not quarantine new arrivals. So it's not as simple as a tank, water, rock and lights.

And for every new thread we see pop up about "all my fish have died" there are probably 5 more similar occurrences that have happened that we never hear about. And it happens every day, day after day. This is great for the collectors, importers, local fish stores, but not for the sustainability of these creatures. We can look at the Banggi Cardinal for example. We collect and collect and collect, until what? They're gone. We're now resorting to crowd funding to try and restore their endangered populations. That is not sustainability.

So, this thread may seem a little harsh, but it is the truth.
 
They are pets, not inanimate objects, not trophies. If YOU make the DECISION to BUY a marine animal YOU are making a COMMITMENT and now have full RESPONSIBILITY to insure that it LIVES! We can insure that this hobby is here for our kids and grand kids, but that is only going to happen if you understand sustainability. The thinking that if one fish dies, I'll just buy another is flawed.

Words can't express how great this post is.

I really, truely think that some people feel / think this way that you described. "oh, it's no big deal if something dies."

People treat their dogs, cats, other pets a lot differerent than fish (with a lot more care), and I'll never understand why.
 
I agree 100%. Education and patience are #1 points for me. Is the influx of newbies increasing recently? If so, I wonder if shows like Tanked are responsible.
 
I'm going to be brutally honest with you. Everyday I come on Reef Central I see a new thread by a new member about how you have done a hack job on your tank. Usually with the equipment setup itself, but most often it's the fact that you fail to do any research.

The result is YOU kill off a few or 10 fish and another dozen or so corals before you finally come to your senses and start to research and learn what it takes to take part in a hobby like this or you simply drop out of the hobby altogether. Which for the sake of the animals is probably a good thing. However, collectively you all have done your damage.

First, let me tell you this thread isn't a "How to Setup a Ornamental Marine System", that's already been done and if you "research" you'll find that information. No, this is a thread on "How to be a Successful Ornamental Marine Hobbyist."

There's some questions you need to ask yourself.

1) Do I have the money to partake in an expensive hobby like this?

This hobby isn't cheap. We're not collecting stamps. We're collecting fragile marine organisms that require expensive equipment and consumable products to insure that these animals not just survive, but grow. If you're scraping every little dime together to buy products, you're doing yourself a disservice. Hobby money is excess money you have after bills are paid and savings have been made. So before you consider getting into this hobby you need to make damn sure you can afford it. I'm sure everyone would love a ornamental marine system in their living room, but for many they just can't afford it. There is nothing wrong with being humble and realizing you simply can't afford a hobby like this. If a fish tank is a must, setup a freshwater tank. There's nothing wrong with freshwater and it will at a minimum prepare you when you do have some money to transition over to the saltwater side of the hobby. Don't be ignorant or selfish and force the impossible. If you have to wait two weeks to save up money for salt mix, don't get into this hobby. You will fail.

2) Do I have the time to commit to a hobby like this?

A hobby is a way to spend your excess time for personal enjoyment. Well this hobby not only requires a lot of time, it's also a permanent "COMMITMENT." This is not your stamp collection that can sit on the back burner for weeks or months. Plain and simple, it's a job! Albeit a fun and rewarding job, it's still a job nonetheless. It is going to require daily attention. The way you design your setup will definitely dictate how easy or not it is to complete these daily tasks. But you need to recognize how much time is involved. From feeding, to cleaning glass, to dosing, to water changes, to maintaining equipment, to replacing media, etc. If your spouse or significant other is already complaining that you don't spend enough time with them, this hobby is a sure way to help send you to the front of the line at divorce court or your local watering hole while you drown yourself in 12 ounces of sorrow wondering why they left you. And let's not forget about your other commitments. You know, like raising your children. The bottom line is, does your schedule afford enough time everyday to maintain a marine system? If not, this hobby isn't for you and you will fail.

3) Am I willing to do the research required to start and maintain a ornamental marine system?

To the average person that walks in a local fish store they see saltwater and fish and think, "Oh how simple, water and fish, I can do this." NO! It's not that simple. If you're on here asking why do my fish keep dying and we ask you how did you cycle your tank or did you quarantine them and your reply is, "What's that?" My guess is the answer to the question is, no. You need to spend a significant amount of time reading what it takes to have a successful system. This hobby is full of challenges, even for the seasoned hobbyist and if you don't have the basic education of a marine environment you are going to fail. Again, I'm not going to detail what the marine environment is, that's already been done. It's your responsibility to seek out that information and educate yourself. I can assure you your time spent in this hobby will be much more rewarding if you have the knowledge and can be proactive to your system rather than reactive. I cringe every time I see a "ID This" thread and the corresponding picture is a pineapple sponge or a vermited snail, etc. This tells me you have not done your research. At the end of the day, if you're not willing to do the research, you're going to fail.

4) Am I willing to learn from others and accept the information I have gathered?

This seems like a no brainier, but I constantly see new hobbyist unwilling to heed the advice of those with experience. Dammit, if we tell you tap water isn't going to work in a marine system or a blue hippo tang is not suitable in your 12" cube or that large angel is going to eat that clam, you need to listen and act accordingly to that advice. Check your selfish know it all ego at the login screen. Their are seasoned hobbyist with decades of experience that are here to help you. Watching you write them off like they know nothing because so and so said this at Petco or you're just too damn stubborn to listen or admit you're wrong is only going to do yourself a disservice and you're going to fail. Many people have already made the mistakes your making. If you do #3 in this thread and accept that information (aka, willingness to learn) your chances of success in this hobby are going to increase substantially. You are not going to change an animals instinct, you are not going to change the laws of hydrodynamics, nor are you going to change the laws of physics, etc. If you're going to try and prove us and nature wrong, you are going to fail.

5) Last but not least. Do I understand the consequences of my actions in this hobby?

This hobby involves LIFE. Delicate life. Limited life. The fact that some of you look at these animals as just trophies in a tank sitting on a stand is going to hurt not only the existence of the hobby, but the existence of the species themselves. There is not an unlimited supply of these animals. We are not capable of breeding them like cats and dogs. Every time I see you fail at the first 4 questions in this thread, the result is you have unnecessarily killed these animals. Our hobby already has a public image problem and you're thread about how all your fish died a week after you added them to your two week old tank is just fueling the fire for law makers to impose more regulations upon us, to outright bans. You need to change your perception of captive marine life. You wouldn't go buy a dog and keep it in a 2 foot cage for the rest of its life. You wouldn't buy a dog and not get it its shots. You wouldn't buy a dog and feed it lettuce. You wouldn't (shouldn't) buy a dog without the commitment to keep it as long as it lives. The same goes for our marine animals. They are pets, not inanimate objects, not trophies. If YOU make the DECISION to BUY a marine animal YOU are making a COMMITMENT and now have full RESPONSIBILITY to insure that it LIVES! We can insure that this hobby is here for our kids and grand kids, but that is only going to happen if you understand sustainability. The thinking that if one fish dies, I'll just buy another is flawed. The thinking needs to be, "I'm going to do everything possible to insure this animal will not only survive, but thrive and live a complete full life while under my care." If not, not only are you going to fail, but your going to fail all of us, including the species we love.

In conclusion, I ask that you ask yourself these 5 simple questions. And if you can't honestly answer yes to all of them, choose a different hobby.

+1 I vote sticky!
 
I could not agree more!

I've been keeping some pretty substantial freshwater planted tanks for over 35 years. A few years ago I had a SW fish only tank that I maintained, but never seriously delved into reef tanks.

I used to manage two pet stores (not from an office, but right on the floor, elbow deep in tanks maintaining them and educating the public). Sometimes i would flat out refuse to sell a living creature to someone who did not exhibit some knowledge and appreciation for it. I spent more time educating than selling, but felt it was my duty. If there is one thing lacking with many people who get into fresh and saltwater tanks it is PATIENCE!

I've never kept a reef tank before, so for the past year i have been reading, reading and asking questions and reading some more. I now have my equipment and I'm still reading some more. I have all of my rock set up and aquascaped and I still am in no rush to fill my tank. I will not fill it until I am damn sure I know what I'm doing with my equipment, how to manage the water parameters, test them and keep the tank as stable as possible before I even think about putting a living creature into it.

I have an idea of what I want in my tank and based all my equipment on that, but you know what? I can wait. For me, half the fun of this (serious) hobby is the process of it all, including becoming educated. Even at that, being "booksmart" is not the same thing as experience. So I'm going to ask and take advice from people far more experienced than me and I'm not going to shortchange the lives I'll be responsible for by rushing into anything.

PATIENCE is a virtue...and never more so than in this hobby.
 
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Another vote for Sticky. This is a good rant, but very valid and the kind of tough love some folks (I can think of a few very recent) need to hear.
 
While I agree with the majority of what the OP said, I do hope newbies won't be discouraged from asking questions. Whether or not they have done what it takes to get themselves a decent start is one thing, but if they haven't and are asking for help, I for one do want to provide help for the simple reason that I want people to learn how to succeed in this hobby. Ultimately, like the OP said, I want to avoid all of us getting screwed by legal barriers that are being discussed all the time because of the bad image that has been attached to the practice of keeping sea creatures in glass boxes.

No, I don't want to encourage newbies to just rely upon everything we tell them. But one of the key functions of this forum is to continue the process of building and teaching the fundamentals of marine husbandry. It's frustrating to those of us who have studied and have years of experience, but try to remember that many of these guys are getting garbage advice at their LFS and simply don't realize there is an online resource such as this until they have a problem. This hobby is so unlike any other, it's amazing, but it's often very hard to realize that until a serious incident happens.

I think what I'm trying to say is that no matter how much I or any of you hate it, there will always be people who think this hobby is as simple as salt, water, and a space to put it in. There will always be people who try to put Tang's in 10gal tanks. There will always be people who don't cycle, or try to use "snake oil" remedies, etc. We can do our part to help prevent this, but it is an unavoidable reality that there will always be threads entitled "I just killed 14 fish, what'd I do wrong?" The best we can do sometimes is continue to confront that when it happens, no matter how much it frustrates us. Let those who are arrogant and don't listen fail. They'll leave the hobby anyways, but maybe we can help a few become better and they in turn can help someone else and so forth and so on.

The OP's analysis is spot on, but I feel like those who are more experienced also have a responsibility, a much bigger role even in how this hobby may turn out in the future as there are those who would seek to stop it altogether. The survival of this pastime that we all enjoy so much hangs not just on how many newbies heed advice, but on the willingness of the experienced to continue to deliver it in spite of the many frustrations that we all have.
 
This should be a STICKY for sure!!!
It is a unique presentation from the OTHER point of view: YOU WILL FAIL if . . . .
Those that are limited on money or time or sense of commitment might ignore all this (many seem to have already done that) but the hope is that some will take a realistic look at the concept and make a <<conscious>> DECISION to pursue or reconsider their plan.

Now, how do we guide the newbies to reading the STICKYs or use the "SEARCH" function??? . . . Hopefully BEFORE they purchase the living organisms. . .

Thank you CUZZA for stepping up and writing this!
 
While I agree with the majority of what the OP said, I do hope newbies won't be discouraged from asking questions. Whether or not they have done what it takes to get themselves a decent start is one thing, but if they haven't and are asking for help, I for one do want to provide help for the simple reason that I want people to learn how to succeed in this hobby. Ultimately, like the OP said, I want to avoid all of us getting screwed by legal barriers that are being discussed all the time because of the bad image that has been attached to the practice of keeping sea creatures in glass boxes.

No, I don't want to encourage newbies to just rely upon everything we tell them. But one of the key functions of this forum is to continue the process of building and teaching the fundamentals of marine husbandry. It's frustrating to those of us who have studied and have years of experience, but try to remember that many of these guys are getting garbage advice at their LFS and simply don't realize there is an online resource such as this until they have a problem. This hobby is so unlike any other, it's amazing, but it's often very hard to realize that until a serious incident happens.

I think what I'm trying to say is that no matter how much I or any of you hate it, there will always be people who think this hobby is as simple as salt, water, and a space to put it in. There will always be people who try to put Tang's in 10gal tanks. There will always be people who don't cycle, or try to use "snake oil" remedies, etc. We can do our part to help prevent this, but it is an unavoidable reality that there will always be threads entitled "I just killed 14 fish, what'd I do wrong?" The best we can do sometimes is continue to confront that when it happens, no matter how much it frustrates us. Let those who are arrogant and don't listen fail. They'll leave the hobby anyways, but maybe we can help a few become better and they in turn can help someone else and so forth and so on.

The OP's analysis is spot on, but I feel like those who are more experienced also have a responsibility, a much bigger role even in how this hobby may turn out in the future as there are those who would seek to stop it altogether. The survival of this pastime that we all enjoy so much hangs not just on how many newbies heed advice, but on the willingness of the experienced to continue to deliver it in spite of the many frustrations that we all have.

I agree with you on all points, however, I feel the main issue is when people ask for advice, but they do not take it and do what they want anyway. It is kind of a slap in the face, and I have actually stopped responding to people when I see that is how it is going.
 
Some thoughts:

It's a bit refreshing to see a straight forward wake up slap in the face kinda thread. I vote for sticky, this should come as some sort of commandment to reefcentral members or an oath to this dedicated hobby.

1) I found it fair how much emphasis was expressed regarding the financial aspect our hobby requires. After all, we are essentially keeping slices of the ocean in our living rooms. Keeping a humble system but very dedicated husbandry procedures is admirable, but to question why everything is so expensive in this hobby is crazy.

2) I agree. Whoever partakes in this hectic hobby SHOULD commit 100% in efforts to provide the best thriving conditions possible , whether it's a full blown sps tank or a frogfish dedicated tank. I personally appreciate every bit of knowledge I gain through experience and research. Never a day wasted , when learning daily in this hobby.

3-4) Countless yellow tangs deprived of adequate swimming space, cramped species of delicate marine life in overstocked tanks, mandarins perishing from starvation just because that certain fish is too "cute" or very rare to let it slip away. I swear a lot of new salties treat livestock like tshirts easily replaced.

I even witnessed how desperate some rc members can be tricking themselves into believing their tanks "qualify" enough in order to own various species they shouldn't keep. To make matters worse, some will heed advice from experienced reefers only to deliberately ignore any disapproval from their choice of livestock. After all , it's their money spent so who needs proper judgement on choosing fish right? WRONG

5) Icing on the cake. Unfortunately, the first thing people think of when purchasing fish is how "colorful" or how amusing they are, has anyone ever thought of keeping them til death comes? I know people say they basically "rescued" the last fish they bought from that cramped lfs tank but only to come back wondering why the blue hippo tang didn't last long in their 55g tank. :deadhorse1:

CuzzA , Amazing job on a well put thread (rant). I strongly agree with every point you have raised. I remember you catering to one of my first questions posted here on rc. Appreciate the time and dedication you and other seasoned (rc) vets in helping us fairly new to the world of salties. +11111
 
CuzzA , Amazing job on a well put thread (rant). I strongly agree with every point you have raised. I remember you catering to one of my first questions posted here on rc. Appreciate the time and dedication you and other seasoned (rc) vets in helping us fairly new to the world of salties. +11111

Yes!! Very appreciated CuzzA. Your name plus some others (Sk8er!!) need to be glorified at certain points for putting up with us. I guess to much reading and researching leads to less praise.
 
What a world it would be if everybody was perfect, nary a fish nor coral would be lost.
Not a very friendly post, in my opinion.
Make that post a sticky and you'll see alot less people asking for help as you've already labeled them a failure.
 
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