High Nitrates- Help

[mdrobc1213]

Okay I am a moderately experienced aquarium guy - entered the hobby in 2008 and have had a 55 g, 90 g, 120 g, and now 150 g Marine tank with pretty good amounts of success. Am in a profession which requires frequent moves every say 2-4 yrs so have used each of these occasions to upgrade my tank. So brings me to know. My current tank is a 150gallon reef w/live rock and a 2" sand bed w/live sand. Started off with a few damsels and no live rock as I had recently moved again and this was a new set up. Here are my initial parameters back on 15 Aug 2015.

Ph=8.2
SG=1.022
Temp=82.1
NH3=0
Nitrite=0.0
Nitrate=not measured.

Tank is an Aqueon 150g w/dual overflows into an approx. 30 gal acrylic sump w/bio balls for filtration and using a Red Octopus DC return pump and a DC pump driven Skimmer and also a 1/5 hp Chiller as am currently in Arizona and temps during the summer kinda get a bit hot. Lighting is via two Hydra 26 wireless lights and system is controlled by an Apex Controller system w/2 MP40 and 2 MP10 pumps for flow and wave making.

Approx around 2nd Oct I started to have fish loss of original damsels, 1 Kole Tang, 2 clownfish and 1 Passer angel and 1 juvenile Hippo tang. This was after about a 1.5 in the tank. Water was tested by LFS and noted high nitrates.

Ph=8.2
SG=1.025
Temp=82
NH3=00
Nitrates=160
Nitrites=4
Alk=not tested

Added Marine Nitromax daily to try to re-establish bio-load and cut down on feedings as recommended by LFS who have said that my tank was still too young for a good bio filter to be established and also I was likely overfeeding.

Lost most fish other than coral banded shrimp and Niger Trigger who had been in tank since early Sept. Have since done 30g water changes x2 over past 4 weeks with RO water as I discovered previously used tap water from hose had following readings prior to salt water mixing (PH=8.8, NH3=0, Nitrate=80 ppm, Nitrite=0.0).

Last water test on 1 Nov 2015 was:

Ph=8.26
SG=1.028
Temp=76,8
NH3=0.25
Nitrates=160
Nitrites=0

Today 12 Nov test were

Ph=8.3
SG=1.029
Temp=78
NH3=0.25
Nitrates=80
Nitrites=0.0
Calcium=465
Alk=157

Am using a brand new purchased API Marine Test kit, filters have been changed and last water change was on Oct 29, 2015 w/30 gal RI/DO water salt mixed in 32 gal trash canister and aerated overnight. So cannot figure out why I am still having fish deaths (Naso tang, sailfin tang, and juv french angel) and nitrate issues at this point. Kenya Tree coral is okay as is green polyps also are looking good and Georgian (sp) is doing well too. All snails and hermit crabs also are doing okay. Coral banded shimp is just fine (added Sept) and recently added Foxface is also active and all are eating. However acclimating and adding any new fish to replace losses seem to be still be challenging. All fish are drip acclimated for min 1-2hrs. Any thoughts? Advice?

 

[ZeeSparrow]

Few things that come to mind for me:

You may be losing fish because the tank isn't cycled.
You may also be losing fish because of your acclimation process.
Your nitrates are high because you started with tap water that already has nitrates in it, and you possibly overfed.

Suggestions:

1) Slow down. I agree with your LFS: it's a new tank. 3 damsels, 2 tangs, 2 clownfish and an angel are likely WAY too high a bioload on the biological filter at this point. You lost those, then added more... still too much. Slow down. Let the system catch up to the load.
2) Use Prime to bind that ammonia for the fish you have now!
3) Research acclimation. Fish can be floated in the aquarium for a temp match and then, so long as salinity in the bag and the tank match, put straight into the tank (with as little water as possible from the bag). You may have damaged their kidneys due to ammonia poisoning.
4) Keep up on water changes with RODI water. That will bring your nitrates down, so long as you don't overfeed.
5) Look into setting up a Quarantine system.

Good luck!

 

[bertoni]

The spike in nitrite makes me agree that the fish were added too quickly. I suspect that the ammonia spiked for a while, perhaps to a dangerous level, before you measured the 4 ppm of nitrite. Some Prime or Amquel would be useful in the short term. 0.25 ppm on a test kit is an emergency, in my opinion. I'd consider some large (20-25%) water changes, as well. I would stop all feeding until the ammonia is gone. Your fish can live quite happily without any feeding for quite a long time.

The nitrate level, whether it's 160 ppm or 80 ppm, is safe for fish. People have run tanks much higher than that with very healthy fish. If you wish to reduce the nitrate level, there are a number of steps that I would consider as starting points:

1) Bio-balls sometimes increase the nitrate level in a tank by inhibiting denitrification. If the tank has enough live rock, I might remove the bio-balls slowly, over a period of a few weeks.

2) More live rock might help a lot. I don't know what's in the tank currently.

3) Even over the long term, less feeding likely is a good idea.

 

[rsain]

I second what Zee says. SLOW DOWN.

This hobby rewards those with patience and willingness to research their interest. The opposite holds as well.

You've had a lot of die off. I counted 11 reported deaths of some wonderful species of fish. Way to many. Please stop adding any more fish (or any other species for that matter) until you have a handle on: cycling your tank, bio loads, feeding quantities.

You did the right thing by coming here. Vigorously and thoroughly search the threads for highly useful information on the above topics. Also read the sticky posts: on SETTING UP HOW TO (new to the hobby forum) and DIRT SIMPLE CHEMISTRY (reef chemistry forum).

There is a wealth of knowledge and cumulative experience in the thousands of years here. Please use the resource to your full advantage.

- ryan

 

[mdrobc1213]

Thanks. I agree the water is high in nitrates but that is due to heavy farming here and no way around that other than to RO it. Did that and had water w/almost no nitrates! Used Prime now at 3 x does for last 2-3 days. Hope it helps. Also established a 10gal quarribtieb tank using large piece of live rock and fresh water from LFS's reef system to get some already acclimated water with live bacteria in it! Quarantine is doing well...main tank keeps spiking. Should I just stop feeding daily and go back to every other day like I was for the initial week to ten days when this occurred? Got the stop adding fish...what about corals? Also figured may add a specimen to my coral tank and keep him there for 2-3 weeks or so it takes current system to settle down? Yes? no? Good plan or not?

 

[bertoni]

Don't feed at all for a week or so, IMO. I wouldn't add corals to a tank with ammonia, either. The ammonia isn't as toxic to them, but I still wouldn't want to lose more animals.

 

[mdrobc1213]

The spike in nitrite makes me agree that the fish were added too quickly. I suspect that the ammonia spiked for a while, perhaps to a dangerous level, before you measured the 4 ppm of nitrite. Some Prime or Amquel would be useful in the short term. 0.25 ppm on a test kit is an emergency, in my opinion. I'd consider some large (20-25%) water changes, as well. I would stop all feeding until the ammonia is gone. Your fish can live quite happily without any feeding for quite a long time.

The nitrate level, whether it's 160 ppm or 80 ppm, is safe for fish. People have run tanks much higher than that with very healthy fish. If you wish to reduce the nitrate level, there are a number of steps that I would consider as starting points:

1) Bio-balls sometimes increase the nitrate level in a tank by inhibiting denitrification. If the tank has enough live rock, I might remove the bio-balls slowly, over a period of a few weeks.

2) More live rock might help a lot. I don't know what's in the tank currently.

3) Even over the long term, less feeding likely is a good idea.

Nitrite has basically been zero for the most part. Recent Ammonia spike was a surprise as it too has been close to zero. Am thinking about planning a 15-25g water change this evening. When would you guys repeat that?

Have added more live rock over the past few water changes. Currently about 75lbs in there maybe more. Should I just start removing bio balls and replacing them with what in my sump? Filter floss? I did add one of those Chemi-pure bags to the sump and upped my Skimmer which had stopped producing much over the past 2 weeks. Heard about the vodka method to reduce nitrates and ammonia too...worth a try?

I second what Zee says. SLOW DOWN.

This hobby rewards those with patience and willingness to research their interest. The opposite holds as well.

You've had a lot of die off. I counted 11 reported deaths of some wonderful species of fish. Way to many. Please stop adding any more fish (or any other species for that matter) until you have a handle on: cycling your tank, bio loads, feeding quantities.

You did the right thing by coming here. Vigorously and thoroughly search the threads for highly useful information on the above topics. Also read the sticky posts: on SETTING UP HOW TO (new to the hobby forum) and DIRT SIMPLE CHEMISTRY (reef chemistry forum).

There is a wealth of knowledge and cumulative experience in the thousands of years here. Please use the resource to your full advantage.

- ryan

How long should this tank take to cycle? For some reason it's taking so much longer than any tank I've previously owned. Am familiar with the hobby as I said started in 2008 and my previous 125g has a Purple Tang, Bristletooth tang, blue tang, emperor angel, dragon and corris wrasse, foxface, and Huma trigger all doing well in the same tank with little water issues. That tank did have a refugium in the sump w/Fiji mud and algae to help things out which I did not do this go around. But basically am perplexed at some of the problems faced as initially tank did well over 1st 30-45 days! Hell on "Tanked" I've seen them add 2-3x my current stock and bio load w/out a problem but that's another issue/method I guess.

But thanks for the advice and comments cause I am smart enough to know I don't have all the answers thus I come to the experts of the community!

 

[mdrobc1213]

Oh forgot here's the tank pics.

 

[rsain]

Science doesn't do "should". It just does. Our goal is to understand the processes and work within known parameters to be successful.

I would type more, but all of your questions are addressed in threads on cycling (dozens).

Other more knowledgeable folks will surely have quicker answers.

- ryan

 

[bertoni]

We don't have very good data on how much live rock is needed in a tank, and live rock likely isn't all that uniform, but for a 150g tank with a significant fish load, I'd probably target at least 150 lbs if I were going to use live rock as the main ammonia processor. Given the situation, I'd leave the bio-balls in the system and live with the nitrate.

I'm not sure that the tank needed more time to cycle, but adding a large number of fish at once can overload any filtration system. Combine that with heavy feeding, and an ammonia spike is fairly likely.

 

[rsain]

About 2003 I ran a survey of successful reefers.... It's long gone, but a few stats have been burned into my head from the more than 210 responses:

FOWLR tanks (bare bottom) had appx 1.5 lbs of live rock per gallon. The stat was very similar for deep sand beds. That figure hasn't changed much so far as I can tell, but I haven't focused on it recently.

-ryan

 

[mdrobc1213]

Thanks gents. Just did a 20g water change and removed about 1/3 of the bioballs and did sump maintenance. Filter pads, etc. We'll keep you posted.

 

[rsain]

How often are you checking nitrate? I'm a data freak and in your case would test daily until you have it stable. Did it change after you did the h2o change? Have you confirmed that your test kit isn't buggered by comparing with another (reliability/validity issue).

Nitrates don't appear from nowhere. Did you find the source yet? Are you sticking with the RO h2o? If yes, test that for nitrates too. Could have a faulty system.

I would be in 100% sleuth mode. You gotta get those nitrates solved for the corals sake. Fish are much more tolerant of nitrate. I still suspect something else killed the fish... But who knows what that is. Did you check ammonia levels, I don't recall?

Read, read, read.

- ryan

 

[rsain]

Oops ... You did show zero on nh3. Check your test kit!

 

[outssider]

tanked is a tv show, if they put one fish in a month, know one would watch.

 

[mdrobc1213]

How often are you checking nitrate? I'm a data freak and in your case would test daily until you have it stable. Did it change after you did the h2o change? Have you confirmed that your test kit isn't buggered by comparing with another (reliability/validity issue).

Nitrates don't appear from nowhere. Did you find the source yet? Are you sticking with the RO h2o? If yes, test that for nitrates too. Could have a faulty system.

I would be in 100% sleuth mode. You gotta get those nitrates solved for the corals sake. Fish are much more tolerant of nitrate. I still suspect something else killed the fish... But who knows what that is. Did you check ammonia levels, I don't recall?

Read, read, read.

- ryan

I think the source is the water and possibly the bioballs for the elevated Nitrates. I removed 1/3 of the bioballs and did a water change and today's water test was:

Temp=78.6
PH=8.24
NH3=0.25
Nitrite=0.0
Nitrate=20
Salinity=1.027

Oops ... You did show zero on nh3. Check your test kit!

See above.

tanked is a tv show, if they put one fish in a month, know one would watch.

Yes I know. I hear they do excessive water changes and adding of bacteria loads to instant cycle their aquariums over a very short period of time. But it seems to work for them...at least on the show.

 

[rsain]

I would refrain from thinking that anything you see in that show is even remotely like something you should model. Too much flash... The real secrets of making this work make bad tv.

Imagine if they showed you the suggested 6 week quarantine times? Lol.

Are you using RO water?

Is your goal to keep corals too?

- ryan

 

[mdrobc1213]

Yes I know but it is nice to watch some of the tanks and fish they showcase. Having started marine fish keeping way before it became popular I know that what they show is somewhat produced and does not represent real practices.

Yes would like to keep a few corals and now am using RO water when I mix my own water now since the local tap seems to start with high nitrates (see my initial post). Otherwise I buy salt water from LFS which can get expensive at least more so than making my own.

May start using vodka drip method also to help get them down as I do run a skimmer with my system too. Have heard great results from folks doing so. 1.5ml (150g) to start and then numerous charts show how to progress.