High Nitrates - Immediate Removal?
- Thread starter Xxero
- Start date
Xxero
New member
So do you think that I should keep dosing about 7ml a day or cut back even more? And then do I stay at that dosing level until that build up goes away? The build up isn't much and it takes a while to form - It also seems to just appear on the back glass, but this is where the return pipe from my sump is so that makes sense to me.
So stay at Week 2 dosing levels or stop altogether? Lower until that build up goes away, and then increase dosing per the chart?
So stay at Week 2 dosing levels or stop altogether? Lower until that build up goes away, and then increase dosing per the chart?
I sorta kinda wish I had remained at 30 PPM, believe it or not, everything was still alive at that point. Now all I have, from a shot up to 80PPM are coral skeletons.
I'd remain patient with the carbon dosing, it'll come around. I know mine did, and I was far worse off than you.
All the more reason to suspect it's all cycle driven.
Xxero
New member
I'm going to continue with the carbon dosing, and keep an eye out for bacteria blooms. I'm not sure if that is bacterial build up on the back glass or not. My snails are eating it...if it was bacteria would the snails be eating it?
In regards to water changes:
In theory, if I am at 30ppm nitrates, then doing a 50% water change (20 gallons for me) would bring my nitrates down to 15ppm. And if I were to do another 50% water change the following day, I should be down to near zero ppm's, correct?
Well, I have done this and it did nothing. 30ppm before and after. I even followed this up over the next few days with a 15 gallon change and a 10 gallon change, but nuthin'. 30ppm. So that was changing around 65 gallons of water from a 40 gallon tank in four days and the nitrates didn't budge. I still don't understand.
I found this article dangerous but interesting:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/nitratecontrol/ss/sbsnitratereduction.htm
In regards to water changes:
In theory, if I am at 30ppm nitrates, then doing a 50% water change (20 gallons for me) would bring my nitrates down to 15ppm. And if I were to do another 50% water change the following day, I should be down to near zero ppm's, correct?
Well, I have done this and it did nothing. 30ppm before and after. I even followed this up over the next few days with a 15 gallon change and a 10 gallon change, but nuthin'. 30ppm. So that was changing around 65 gallons of water from a 40 gallon tank in four days and the nitrates didn't budge. I still don't understand.
I found this article dangerous but interesting:
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/nitratecontrol/ss/sbsnitratereduction.htm
Xxero
New member
Oh, I have had my fair share of losses and I honestly blame each one of them on these nitrates. I keep my system clean and maintained. My water parameters are right on and stable. And my temperature and salinity has little to no fluctuation. In the history of this tank's set-up, none of the fish have ever shown a single sign of distress.
But it seems that most corals will not tolerate the nitrates. I even had a Colt coral (beginner coral) melt on me, and nitrates are the only thing that I have to blame it on. It was a nice, healthy specimen and it melted away over 3 weeks. Until I get these nitrates down (and I WILL get these nitrates down!), I am not adding a single thing to this tank. :bigeyes:
Xxero
New member
Do you think adding a bottle of Seachem Stability would help anything?
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Stability.html
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Stability.html
daveonbass
New member
NO. your math is incorrect. 30ppm cut in half is 15ppm...yes. But then 15ppm the next day and a 50% WC will reduce it again but only by half. so half of 15ppm...or 7.5ppm.
daveonbass
New member
this may sound extreme...but I would do a couple things.
I'd make sure that the water I was adding back into the tank after a WC was reading 0ppm NO3. if it's not then what it the point of the WC? and if its not clean enough water then the rough math of where your WC should place you is going to be a headache.
next I would probably make up enough fresh water to do a 100% water change. will this shock the live stock...probably. But it serves a purpose. the Nitrates you have are not THAT crazy. I've had corals survive and thrive with NO3 levels off the API chart. I would do roughly 50% WC's till I got it to a safer level...one every 2 day to a week. then I would do a 100% WC to get them closer to 0ppm. no adverse reactions from my SPS, LPS, softies, or fish.
once you DO do a 100% WC (or very near...casue 100% is unrealistic...more like 90% so the fish can survive), then test the water. Don't wait 2 hours...test it relatively soon then at an hour, then at 2...till you are sure it's stable. The reason I'd recommend this...even just once...is because if you KNOW you're removing 90%-100% of the old 30ppm water...and then adding 0ppm replacement water...then if the tank returns to 30ppm within 2 hours you'll KNOW you have a weird problem.
The reason this is so perplexing as I read the thread is because if you do a WC and lower NO3, then they bounce back up to 30ppm AGAIN in 2 hours that means they are RISING...but then why do they suddenly stop? that's what's troubling. if they gradually came back up then it would take longer than 2 hours...and they would probably rise well above 30ppm. why they seem to be hovering at that level is very strange.
I'd make sure that the water I was adding back into the tank after a WC was reading 0ppm NO3. if it's not then what it the point of the WC? and if its not clean enough water then the rough math of where your WC should place you is going to be a headache.
next I would probably make up enough fresh water to do a 100% water change. will this shock the live stock...probably. But it serves a purpose. the Nitrates you have are not THAT crazy. I've had corals survive and thrive with NO3 levels off the API chart. I would do roughly 50% WC's till I got it to a safer level...one every 2 day to a week. then I would do a 100% WC to get them closer to 0ppm. no adverse reactions from my SPS, LPS, softies, or fish.
once you DO do a 100% WC (or very near...casue 100% is unrealistic...more like 90% so the fish can survive), then test the water. Don't wait 2 hours...test it relatively soon then at an hour, then at 2...till you are sure it's stable. The reason I'd recommend this...even just once...is because if you KNOW you're removing 90%-100% of the old 30ppm water...and then adding 0ppm replacement water...then if the tank returns to 30ppm within 2 hours you'll KNOW you have a weird problem.
The reason this is so perplexing as I read the thread is because if you do a WC and lower NO3, then they bounce back up to 30ppm AGAIN in 2 hours that means they are RISING...but then why do they suddenly stop? that's what's troubling. if they gradually came back up then it would take longer than 2 hours...and they would probably rise well above 30ppm. why they seem to be hovering at that level is very strange.
Xxero
New member
Thanks Dave! And thank you for the math correction. It would be 7.5ppm.
That is where I am stuck at the moment. I don't have an RO/DI unit right now, so it would take making a trip to a different LFS to access more water. And that is hoping that they would provide me with 0 nitrate water.
So just to make sure I'm reading things correctly: you're suggesting doing 2 or 3 50% water changes over the course of a week, and then do a 100% (90%) change at the end of that?
If I did two 50% changes, that would be a total of 40 gallons. Then at the end, change another 40 (35 ish) gallons at once for a total of 80 gallons in a week?
Thanks again. :bigeyes:
That is where I am stuck at the moment. I don't have an RO/DI unit right now, so it would take making a trip to a different LFS to access more water. And that is hoping that they would provide me with 0 nitrate water.
So just to make sure I'm reading things correctly: you're suggesting doing 2 or 3 50% water changes over the course of a week, and then do a 100% (90%) change at the end of that?
If I did two 50% changes, that would be a total of 40 gallons. Then at the end, change another 40 (35 ish) gallons at once for a total of 80 gallons in a week?
Thanks again. :bigeyes:
Xxero
New member
Yeah, I just found out the water that I've been using has small traces of nitrate in it. If it has this whole time, I don't know, but it really wouldn't surprise me.
And that's the strange part for me also...It never goes above or below 30ppms...ever. This whole time. Over the last few months, I have probably tested 50 times, and each with a deadlocked 30ppm. Nutz! :fun5:
daveonbass
New member
actually...What I was saying was that "I" had 180ppm+ once...and I did a few WC to get the over all NO3 lever to about 40ppm. THEN "I" did a 100% water change. I'm sure I'll get blasted for suggesting such a drastic move...but All the livestock thanked me for it in the long run. I saw lots of growth and color after that.
As for you...if I were to be honest...I'd say that you'd be fine right now just doing ONE massive 100% (90%) water change. Sounds like you are at around 50g of total water. So I'd make up maybe two large trashcans of SW and bring it to temp and salinity...then before changing I'd test one more time to make sure it's at 0PPM NO3...then I'd syphon out all my water. I'd make sure to get as much detritus out of the rocks...and syphon as much of it out as I could. All while keeping track of how much I've removed (so as not to go over the amount you have to replace it on accident...just in case). Then when the fish are on the brink of being out of water I'd stop (sometimes creating a low spot in the sand will help this)...and then start adding the new water to the tank. It may not be exactly zero...but it should be very low.
THEN...if you notice that the NO3 creeps back up to 30ppm in 2 hours I'd call an exorcist.
As for you...if I were to be honest...I'd say that you'd be fine right now just doing ONE massive 100% (90%) water change. Sounds like you are at around 50g of total water. So I'd make up maybe two large trashcans of SW and bring it to temp and salinity...then before changing I'd test one more time to make sure it's at 0PPM NO3...then I'd syphon out all my water. I'd make sure to get as much detritus out of the rocks...and syphon as much of it out as I could. All while keeping track of how much I've removed (so as not to go over the amount you have to replace it on accident...just in case). Then when the fish are on the brink of being out of water I'd stop (sometimes creating a low spot in the sand will help this)...and then start adding the new water to the tank. It may not be exactly zero...but it should be very low.
THEN...if you notice that the NO3 creeps back up to 30ppm in 2 hours I'd call an exorcist.
Xxero
New member
:lolspin:
Now that was funny.
I don't think that you will get blasted. I also don't believe it's that uncommon of a practice. I think for now, I'm just going to pause. I will get an RO/DI unit in a week's time and in the meantime just halt on the water changes. What stinks though is that I'm still topping off with that stuff daily.
I just put an ATS into place, and I am anxious to see what that does for the system. Of course that will be another few weeks to see it mature. I will also continue with the vinegar dosing and see what happens there. I'm only a few weeks into that as well. I'm doing my best to implement everything that I can to help get rid of these nitrates, but until I stop adding it into my water, I feel like I am just spinning my wheels.
I'm curious as to what the nitrate reading would be out of my tap?
Very large water changes sometimes cause problems, and I would avoid them except in cases of emergencies. A series of small changes should be able to control the problem if it can be controlled with water changes at all. Many people see nitrate levels spiking back up quickly in their tanks. Until the RO/DI filter is under control, I wouldn't want to trust the water quality for changes in general, particular for large changes.
Xxero
New member
LFS Water
LFS Water
I made a quick trip to the LFS today, and I found the courage to bring up the 5.0ppm nitrate reading that I was getting from their water.
They weren't defensive at all, but they also reassured me that I was wrong. They didn't hesitate to test it right in front of me, and sure enough their tests read zero. We did it twice with 2 kits and both read zero. Maybe my lighting is bad or something, I don't know???
It also piqued their curiosity enough to check it for phosphates, and it read zero as well. They explained their water system to me, and if what they're saying is all true, then it's a pretty elaborate set up.
Anyway, I'm not really worried about it for now. I'm still buying an RO/DI unit either way, so it won't be an issue soon enough. I was just relieved the confrontation went well because I really do like that particular store. :bigeyes:
LFS Water
I made a quick trip to the LFS today, and I found the courage to bring up the 5.0ppm nitrate reading that I was getting from their water.
They weren't defensive at all, but they also reassured me that I was wrong. They didn't hesitate to test it right in front of me, and sure enough their tests read zero. We did it twice with 2 kits and both read zero. Maybe my lighting is bad or something, I don't know???
It also piqued their curiosity enough to check it for phosphates, and it read zero as well. They explained their water system to me, and if what they're saying is all true, then it's a pretty elaborate set up.
Anyway, I'm not really worried about it for now. I'm still buying an RO/DI unit either way, so it won't be an issue soon enough. I was just relieved the confrontation went well because I really do like that particular store. :bigeyes:
Xxero
New member
(Yesterday's post was about the LFS's freshwater top-off that they sell.)
But as for my tank's water, I have brought several samples to them for testing, and they usually match up with mine. I have a brand new Red Sea Marine Care kit and a brand new API as well. The pink/purple from the Red Sea goes from 20ppm to 50ppm in one step, and my color falls in-between there somewhere. The API test nails it down to about 30ppm.
In regards to my procedure, both test kits are fairly idiot proof. In fact, I noticed that my procedures seem to be a little more fastidious than my LFS's. All of their testing vials are just thrown into a basket. They didn't rinse the testing vial before or after. With their API test, they didn't shake up bottle #2 at all, and after adding bottle #2 they only gave the total mixture a few seconds worth of shaking. They have Salifert tests also, but their go-to is the API.
To be honest, I have a Love/Hate relationship with my LFS. It's a great shop with a lot of livestock diversity, but I don't agree with 99% of the advice/suggestions that I receive from them. In fact, I can easily say that their reef practices are the exact opposite of what they teach here on Reef Central. It gets really confusing sometimes wondering who to listen to in this hobby.
In hindsight, I don't really even trust the nitrate tests that they did on their water yesterday. As I said, if the mixing procedures for the test are as detrimental to the reading as the instructions state (rinsing vials; shaking for 30 seconds; shaking for 60 seconds, etc.), then the LFS flunked yesterday. They did none of the above steps and they were showing me the color test results in less than a minute. It doesn't really matter though because I am definitely getting an RO/DI unit to avoid all of this in the future. I just never thought to question the LFS's water quality before. A little naïve on my part, but you would think that the LFS would want nitrate free water for their customers as well as for themselves.
Lesson learned! :bigeyes:
Xxero
New member
Algae Turf Scrubber - Day 7
Algae Turf Scrubber - Day 7
I thought that I'd share a week's worth of algae growth:
DAY 4:
DAY 7 (front):
DAY 7 (back):
DAY 7 - (after scrubbing the screen):
I was pretty impressed with the growth considering it was the first week of operation. It is suggested that even on the first seventh day to go ahead and scrub the screen. The algae is red in color so far, but I have seen little patches of green. From what I understand, the green algae is what we're shooting for here.
Today is also the first day of Week 4 with my vinegar carbon dosing. I will be around the 15ml per day mark, and so far I have nothing new to report. I haven't seen any unsightly bacterial blooms or any other observable changes. My nitrates remain at 30.
Speaking of nitrates, I did have the opportunity to witness the effect that a large water change can have on their removal. A couple of weeks ago, I set up a new 20 gallon system that underwent a very fast cycle. At the end, the nitrates had a reading of 30ppm (go figure!). I changed 8 gallons of water (roughly 50%), and the nitrate reading afterwards was 5ppm! I know that it's a smaller system, but I found the result to be very inspiring. I'm still waiting for my RO/DI unit, but as soon as I get it, I plan on doing a series of very large water changes to my main DT.
Between those large water changes; the ATS; the DSB; the addition of more Live Rock; and the strict use of nitrate free RO/DI water, I plan on seeing some @#$%! results! If I don't, I may go back to the stick of dynamite theory that I had in the beginning of this thread. :blown:
Algae Turf Scrubber - Day 7
I thought that I'd share a week's worth of algae growth:
DAY 4:
DAY 7 (front):
DAY 7 (back):
DAY 7 - (after scrubbing the screen):
I was pretty impressed with the growth considering it was the first week of operation. It is suggested that even on the first seventh day to go ahead and scrub the screen. The algae is red in color so far, but I have seen little patches of green. From what I understand, the green algae is what we're shooting for here.
Today is also the first day of Week 4 with my vinegar carbon dosing. I will be around the 15ml per day mark, and so far I have nothing new to report. I haven't seen any unsightly bacterial blooms or any other observable changes. My nitrates remain at 30.
Speaking of nitrates, I did have the opportunity to witness the effect that a large water change can have on their removal. A couple of weeks ago, I set up a new 20 gallon system that underwent a very fast cycle. At the end, the nitrates had a reading of 30ppm (go figure!). I changed 8 gallons of water (roughly 50%), and the nitrate reading afterwards was 5ppm! I know that it's a smaller system, but I found the result to be very inspiring. I'm still waiting for my RO/DI unit, but as soon as I get it, I plan on doing a series of very large water changes to my main DT.
Between those large water changes; the ATS; the DSB; the addition of more Live Rock; and the strict use of nitrate free RO/DI water, I plan on seeing some @#$%! results! If I don't, I may go back to the stick of dynamite theory that I had in the beginning of this thread. :blown:
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