HOT TOPIC!!! Lineage!

MinibowMatt

Active member
So with all the hype of LE corals and lineage, I wonder why nobody has started actually charting lineage? With dogs, it is widely accpeted that if your going to call a dog a "XXXXX" and charge the price that goes with said dog, you must provide "papers" meaning (usually) an AKC pedigree form. The form proves lineage, without question, and usually give piece of mind to the buyer that their new dog will actually grow up to be what they expected (hunting stock, show stock etc.)

So just for S&G i drew this up. I see no reason that something like this hasn't already been in place....considering they are common in most other animal/pet husbandry areas.
 

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A lot of people dont care about liniage and are willing to pay the price just because it looks good or looks the same. I used to breed AKC registered chocolate labrador puppies. I would fetch a pretty penny for them too. Most times $600-$800 each depending on if it was a male or female. But now you can go into any mall USA into the petstore and buy a halfbreed labradoodle or doberspaniel and pay the same price if not more. For those of us that true liniage is of importance I think you will always see a premium attached. However, it's a really big ocean out there and just because Curly, Larry, or Moe was the 1st person in the US to get a select piece, does that entitle them to the liniage?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12939194#post12939194 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OIB
A lot of people dont care about liniage and are willing to pay the price just because it looks good or looks the same. I used to breed AKC registered chocolate labrador puppies. I would fetch a pretty penny for them too. Most times $600-$800 each depending on if it was a male or female. But now you can go into any mall USA into the petstore and buy a halfbreed labradoodle or doberspaniel and pay the same price if not more. For those of us that true liniage is of importance I think you will always see a premium attached. However, it's a really big ocean out there and just because Curly, Larry, or Moe was the 1st person in the US to get a select piece, does that entitle them to the liniage?

Exactly why no one is tracking it. You can not guarantee no one else will get a wild piece of the same coral as they are imported all the time. If you like the piece, pay what you feel is a fair price for the coral for the size of it.
I personally have set limits to what I will pay and how small a fragment I am willing to purchase. If I end up buying the coral I know I am getting what I feel is a fair deal for that coral size and color even if it doesn't come with a LE or Rare in front of it. It took me a while to realize what I would pay for something but I have set limits now and stick to them. just my .02
 
It seems such registration could only work for captive bred specimens. I like the idea of a reliable certification for captive bred critters, BUT, I have serious reservations about the registrations of lineage in corals--or fish, for that matter.

I raise, train and sell draft horses. I switched from Belgians and Percherons (and occassional mules) several years ago to Suffolk Punch.

There are differences between the breeds in terms of body confirmation and even some behavioral patterns (i.e., Percherons TEND to be more high strung than Suffolks) but these are only statistical patterns and none hold true for every individual of every breed (i.e., I have a Suffolk mare now that is more high strung than any Percheron I've ever seen.)

So, why did I bother to switch breeds, which involved an incredible amount of planning, expense, and work (transporting draft horses is more involved than transporting aquarium fish)? Simple: Suffolks are a rare breed and sell for a higher price. Registration of lineage in horses is what I am doing for my on-farm income.

People will pay more than twice the price for a horse with papers than for a "grade" horse that is much better in terms of actual quality. In short, they are not paying for the horse, they are paying for the papers.

Is this what we want for corals?

One more factor: The Minor Breeds Conservancy and the University of Kentucky have been doing genetic testing of rare breeds of livestock, including draft horses, for awhile. In total numbers there are several times more Belgians and Percherons than there are Suffolks. But, in terms of genetic diversity there is far more diversity among the Suffolks than among the Belgians or Percherons.

Why? Because the Belgians and Percherons have become primarily show animals instead of actual work animals the registration papers have become more important than the quality of the individual animal. There are "certified" lines that are deemed by current fashion to be "superior" to other lines. These become the lines everyone seeks to cross into whatever lines they currently have. The result has been massive inbreeding.

Look at what has happened with Thoroughbreds! There are too few individuals, and individual blood lines, that every one is scrambling to breed to. The result is a decline in the breed, if not the species. Thoroughbreds have become VERY fast, but too brittle to survive (and crazy as hell, as everyone who has been around them knows). Look at the breeds of what used to be working dogs that are now useless show animals.

Do we really want to go that route for the various species that are becoming rare? Or do we want to just keep reproducing the most survival tested individuals? I can easily envision corals being selected primarily on the basis of color intensity--or any other single trait--and traits critical to their survival as a species being lost.

Is this what we want? I vote for staying the hell away from any form of registration and sticking to favoring what is actually working at the individual level. That will, hopefully, strengthen the species rather than weakening it.
 
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What i wanted to know is who is Tyree? what makes his coral that much more special then anyone elses? as mentioned he cant be the only person finding nice corals.
 
I guess I would see this differenty than you guys. I see it as a verification of what I am purchasing. Not necessarily as a pedigree of genes...

If people are going to sell a coral for obscene amounts of money, and tell their purchaser (who wants to pay the obscene amount) that it is an "LE XXXX, and I got it from XXXX" then this form would only back that statement up.
A purchaser can easily use a form like this to contact anyone in the lineage tree to verify their status.

Like anything else in the world, nothing is infallible. It is only a step towards providing a customer with some assurance that their money is well spent. It would help to weed out some crappy sellers who do lie about lineage...

I posted this, because it seems quite evident that LPS buyers(here at least) think "lineage" is very important, and they are willing to drop some serious money for tiny fragments. I really cant understand why a buyer wouldn't want to have a form like this when their purchasing a $200 1/4" piece of a chalice or whatever.

Obviously, their is no governing body, but the ability for a purchaser to contact someone on the tree to verify the sellers words, should be enough to keep the "shady" lineage sellers away... If your going to claim LE, prove it....
 
this argument is debated all the time, there is always going two sides of the fence with this issue! Personally, I have no problem paying for a piece of coral that has a proven track record and is beautiful, but that's just me. I mean if you feel you can get the same pieces at your LFS than good for you, your actually lucky your LFS carries stuff like that. I don't have any good LFS where I am, I have built a relationship with a few online dealers so I know that I am always getting a sweet frag that is pest free and healthy but I usually get a freebie or two thrown into the mix as well....just my 2cents
 
This isnt about LFS/vs LE... this is for "true LE" corals and the way their sold...

Kev, I guess this isnt for you.. however, what about those who you may sell or trade to? might they want to see proof that your words are true?
It seems to me that this is a no-loss situation for sellers/traders and their customers...


Believe me i do not expect any folks here to adopt this. I am a realist.. i see what most in this hobby are about...

I would like to know why sellers wont though, as the only real reasons I can think of, is the seller is lying, and doesnt want to get caught, or the seller is lazy and doesn't want to be bothered to provide one more step of assurance to a purchaser.
 
It's economics 101. It has nothing to do with being LE. All that menas is good ol "SUPPLY an DEMAND". If the diver goes into the waters off the coast of Australia and gets a spectacular looking pink chalice with a neon green rim breaks it in half and then sells them to 2 different people and one guy in New Zealand gets his and puts it in his tank never to be heard from again and the other person just happens to be a guy by the name of Steve Tyree, is it fair that the guy that got the identical piece cannot claim liniage to the same piece? This happens all the time in this hobby. People just need to get over the whole LE thing. Its a big ocean out there full of identical looking corals. The good Lord didnt make just one and ship it to Steve. If it looks like a rose and smells like a rose then chances are it is a rose. Same goes for coral. One thing that you see happening in this hobby is more an more suppliers arepopping up and hence giving more of an opportunity for additional Rare/LE pieces to be captured and then sold, thats why you see it more and more these days. It's only limited or rare until the next diver finds the same coral.
 
Perfect example..........I found an amazingly bright green montipora speciman. It was a wild piece, but I had never seen anything that had this bright of green before, so I bought it. I have never seen it for sale again either, except.........a week after I got mine, tyree listed a new LE montipora coral on his site, and it is exactly the same as the one I bought. There is no difference whatsoever, and they probably came from the same shipment. Can I sell mine as tyree? I did not get it from him, but same coral. How does that work if doing lineage, since I am fist owner.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12944055#post12944055 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by muzz
Perfect example..........I found an amazingly bright green montipora speciman. It was a wild piece, but I had never seen anything that had this bright of green before, so I bought it. I have never seen it for sale again either, except.........a week after I got mine, tyree listed a new LE montipora coral on his site, and it is exactly the same as the one I bought. There is no difference whatsoever, and they probably came from the same shipment. Can I sell mine as tyree? I did not get it from him, but same coral. How does that work if doing lineage, since I am fist owner.
Morally no. Unless you can somehow verify that the coral is somehow linked to the coral that Tyree has made a LE. Selling it in place of are representing it as the original piece would be considered deceptive.
 
I would never claim it to be a tyree piece, or even an LE piece. I just wanted to give an example to others to see. Personally, I buy my corals on how much I like them and how good they look to me. If I have to pay more because I can not find it anywhere else, then so be it. But if I find the same looking, or exact same piece, I will buy it without it having a name. But then again, my tank has 70% ORA or Tyree pieces, but I would not pay even more for those pieces if they had papers showing lineage. just my opinion................
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12943912#post12943912 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OIB
It's economics 101. It has nothing to do with being LE. All that menas is good ol "SUPPLY an DEMAND". If the diver goes into the waters off the coast of Australia and gets a spectacular looking pink chalice with a neon green rim breaks it in half and then sells them to 2 different people and one guy in New Zealand gets his and puts it in his tank never to be heard from again and the other person just happens to be a guy by the name of Steve Tyree, is it fair that the guy that got the identical piece cannot claim liniage to the same piece? This happens all the time in this hobby. People just need to get over the whole LE thing. Its a big ocean out there full of identical looking corals. The good Lord didnt make just one and ship it to Steve. If it looks like a rose and smells like a rose then chances are it is a rose. Same goes for coral. One thing that you see happening in this hobby is more an more suppliers arepopping up and hence giving more of an opportunity for additional Rare/LE pieces to be captured and then sold, thats why you see it more and more these days. It's only limited or rare until the next diver finds the same coral.

while I pretty much agree with all of what you said, but its irrelevant to this topic.
The topic is not about LE Vs. non LE, its about those who are selling a coral as "LE", and all you have to go by is their word that it came from who they say it did.

If people are PAYING for lineage, and WANT lineaged corals, then this format makes sense...to me at least
 
I definitly see your side Matt. Living in So Cal is an advantage for many of us who are able to get the corals from the original sorce or Tyree himself. right now all we have to rely on is trust and honor. Unfortunately that is not always reliable.
 
Matt, why do you even care so much about lineage? From your other post my understanding is you neither like or have LE corals.
 
I would like to see pictures of Steve Tyree's set up and see the LE pieces he keeps. Pictures on the website is great or just naming a piece that others may also have is kind of silly. I see new Tyree pieces that come from Australia that have the same lineage as other suppliers how is that dishonest? I am sure the same thing as with other LE pieces... so why should Lineage matter?
 
I think lineage can matter, and does to an extent. If I list on the selling forum a coral package of ten frags, all LE and ORA pieces, and list it for say 350 dollars, and then listed the same package as just blue staghorn, purple monti cap, tri color acro, etc.., with no names, do you think I would still get the 350 dollars for the package? Also, I am not well known here on reefcentral, so when I go to sell, those that do nto know me may be "iffy" at first about wether or not my pieces are what I say they are. But if I had some kind of paperwork or proof, then they could go by that.

But at the same time, someone could very easily forge or write whatever they want on that sheet of paper. It all comes back to a matter of trust, or just liking what you are seeing and paying what you think is a fair price. In the end, a coral is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Out of curiosity, who regulates papers for dogs or horses? And is there any type of governing body(such as MACNA) that could even consider regulating something like this. If no one body can regulate, then being able to prove lineage always comes back to trust.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12944520#post12944520 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ianiwane
Matt, why do you even care so much about lineage? From your other post my understanding is you neither like or have LE corals.
ianwane- if you have a problem with me or what I post on the forum, send me a PM. If you dont want to participate in the thread, thats fine too stay out...... but dont keep calling me out... you and your fancy corals dont scare me...
 
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