HOT TOPIC!!! Lineage!

[MinibowMatt]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12944680#post12944680 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by muzz
I think lineage can matter, and does to an extent. If I list on the selling forum a coral package of ten frags, all LE and ORA pieces, and list it for say 350 dollars, and then listed the same package as just blue staghorn, purple monti cap, tri color acro, etc.., with no names, do you think I would still get the 350 dollars for the package? Also, I am not well known here on reefcentral, so when I go to sell, those that do nto know me may be "iffy" at first about wether or not my pieces are what I say they are. But if I had some kind of paperwork or proof, then they could go by that.

But at the same time, someone could very easily forge or write whatever they want on that sheet of paper. It all comes back to a matter of trust, or just liking what you are seeing and paying what you think is a fair price. In the end, a coral is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Out of curiosity, who regulates papers for dogs or horses? And is there any type of governing body(such as MACNA) that could even consider regulating something like this. If no one body can regulate, then being able to prove lineage always comes back to trust.

I dont know if regulation is necessary. This hobby is quite close (via the forums) I would think the fact that anyone could look up a screen name and send someone a PM to verify lineage would be enough to keep people honest..

 

[bph0013]

from Tommy Boy:

And you guarantee everything you sell?

You know i could guarantee you all day
long, but we both know a guarantee is
only as good as the man who writes it.

 

[ianiwane]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12945469#post12945469 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MinibowMatt
ianwane- if you have a problem with me or what I post on the forum, send me a PM. If you dont want to participate in the thread, thats fine too stay out...... but dont keep calling me out... you and your fancy corals dont scare me...

It was just a simple question. All I wanted was an answer. BTW, if you really wanted to keep track of this you would need something like a genealogy program.

 

[DNickell]

I may be missing the point of this discussion all together. It seems to me that the choice of terminology is part MY confusion, and may be for others as well.

It seems that what is being suggested is not a true documentation of lineage, or genetic lines--as in having registration papers for registered animals--but a documentation of the chain of possession.

This would be a way of verifying the hands the coral has gone through, from the current seller all the way back to the point of collection (or fragmentation). That is very different than having something akin to a "registry" (I am required to have my stallion and all mares and all foals DNA tested to verify authentic lineage).

I still think I would rather base the amount I'm willing to pay on the quality of the specific individual in question. I have seen too many cases in which the offspring bore none of the desirable characteristics from the parents, and I assume a frag taken from a very "desirable" specimen could also prove to be something other than what one expected.

But, I can see where if you were dealing with very high dollar specimens you might want to verify the source as much as possible, even if only to better pin point the species ID.

My immediate reaction, which may be completely unfounded, to all the emphasis on some individual dealer's reputation is that it won't be long before people are paying more for that dealer's stamp than they are for the coral. Trust me, I make money selling papers, but I also see it as having an underside that is not as obvious from afar.

 

[Dancing4raiin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12944311#post12944311 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gcarroll
Living in So Cal is an advantage for many of us who are able to get the corals from the original sorce or Tyree himself.

are there any stores that sell this kind of stuff, or do you just know the people? But to my previous question, and if this is off topic please let me know. Why does what tryree have make it better then everyone elses? how does he get all these nice pieces

 

[muzz]

Steve Tyree has been in the hobby for a long time, along with some others in the trade. They get to cherry pick shipments, and I am sure harvest some of their own corals as well. They are very knowledgable, and have been lucky enough to get some of the more rare pieces collected before they are offered to the public.

You can go to www.fragfarmers.com to see their stuff. Waiting lists for certain corals are fully "booked" through 2012 on some pieces. You may wait years to get a 1/2" frag of some pieces. Being that those pieces are not readily available, due to the waiting lists, hobbyists that have acquired those pieces can charge a higher price due to demand and lack of supply. Tyree seems to cut one or two frags a month off of a coral, if that. Some are apiece every two months.

Just google Steve Tyree, Mike Paletta, ORA(oceans, reefs, aquariums), or any other major coral farmer. Then try to aquire a stunning piece like theirs in a timely manner, and you will see that it can be difficult. Not all of their stuff is rare, but some of it is and it is beautiful. It seems that all these guys are friends, and work together to make sure no one lowballs the price, and people keep paying it.

Sorry for the hijack on this thread, just wanted to explain the little that I have learned of frag farmers. I will say though that being able to track lineage is very important for some people, and it makes it easier to sell pieces on the internet.

 

[muzz]

Wrong link, sorry.

Reeffarmers.com

That is tyree's site.

 

[OIB]

Yeah, thats a perfect example. Lets get on a waiting list for a frag of a coral that we get dibs on in the year 2012. Meanwhile, every other online coral store has the same coral from the same area and the exact coloration but no "liniage" and lets pay 100 times the cost for it. hmmnmmm. I dont think so.

 

[muzz]

I do not want to take this thread off the original topic, but I can understand both sides of the "argument". Honestly, to each his own. If someone wants to pay for lineage, or get on a list, or by direct from tyree himself, then so be it. If someone finds the same coral elsewhere for less monies, good score, congratulations.

Who are we to say where someone and how someone decides to spend their own money? Nor do I think anyone should be ridiculed or bashed for either side of the argument. For those that want or like to have lineage, or a stamp on thier livestock, then the form that was designed in the top of this thread is a great idea. For those that do not, then just buy your livestock and be happy with it.

You can find out if you do your research what the real good pieces look like. I have 3 seperate superman montis, all maricultured, that do not compare to the real deal. There is a huge difference. If someone gets taken by someone giving false advertising, then let people know, and that person willno longer be a trusted seller. It does not take long for word to spread on the net.

 

[Scythanith]

I don't see what the big deal is...

I don't see what the big deal is...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12948108#post12948108 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OIB
Yeah, thats a perfect example. Lets get on a waiting list for a frag of a coral that we get dibs on in the year 2012. Meanwhile, every other online coral store has the same coral from the same area and the exact coloration but no "liniage" and lets pay 100 times the cost for it. hmmnmmm. I dont think so.

Then good on ya OIB, you can have that coral grown into a full colony by the time someone gets their 1/2" fragment. No one forces you to buy Lineage corals. Some people look at Lineage in respect to corals as a track record for captive success, some look at it with a "postage stamp" collector POV, and some just think they are beautiful and don't want to put the time into looking through LFS for a wild piece.

For whatever reason people do it, they pay a premium for it, and that is their choice. They aren't screaming bloody murder that someone asked them to pay $150 for a 1" frag, they did it of their own free will.

I'm just happy more people are growing and selling captive corals. Of course it took money to get people interested, that's how our culture operates. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's how it is.

Now, as for the tracking of LE corals. Unless YOU buy it directly from the source (ie reeffarmers, WWC, Ultimate, etc etc) then you can't be sure. It doesn't matter if your saint of a mother bought it from Tyree and then gave you a little frag of it. Maybe she was in bad with the wrong people for a rascal scooter underground trafficing ring and they were forcing her to push counterfit corals or they'd take her thumbs! You don't know for sure, you never do.

I like the idea of having an "industry standard" chart that you can use to track the coral's trade with. It's peace of mind. Just don't expect to get a true lineaged coral from someone who is on the 5th frag passed from original. You can never be sure!

So what's the solution? Buy it from whomever you like, but this industry is based entirely on trust. Short of genetic testing, there is no way to 100% prove a coral is of the same lineage. And aside from that, there is always a chance for a mutation or genetic drift within a reef keepers tank, which would alter the original lineaged coral.

People need to relax about the whole topic. If you don't want to pay it don't, simple as that. Don't hate other people for wanting it.

Scott

 

[roblack]

I have seen an auction on ebay with the seller proudly displaying their receipt supposedly "proving" lineage, and that particular coral was NOT as advertised. The honest sellers I know don't feel a need to try to prove lineage, you really can't prove it anyway. Buy from who you want and save yourself some time and trouble about the lineage issue unless you just enjoy that sort of thing. Acting like it proves something is fooling one's self. Matt's coral history spreadsheet is cute, but is not going to change anything. Kind of like my coral log, fun and interesting as it helps me to remember where my corals came from, but proves nothing. IMO lineage is good for discussion b/w traders, sellers, and buyers and that's where it ends.

 

[Justin74]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12947747#post12947747 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by muzz
Steve Tyree has been in the hobby for a long time, along with some others in the trade. They get to cherry pick shipments, and I am sure harvest some of their own corals as well. They are very knowledgable, and have been lucky enough to get some of the more rare pieces collected before they are offered to the public.

Not exactly true. In all fairness to Steve Tyree, he doesnt get first dibs on his stock. There was extreme amounts of footwork, gas, time, related shipping expenses, and relattionships to be made in order for him to provide the corals listed on reeffarmers. He's not the first main gate inspector of everything that is pretty. But there is a select few that are, and just as many like you and me that have stumbled across the LFS and found that one brownie that turned into a gem. He caters too and seeks these people out(as well as vice versa) so you dont have to. Up and down the west coast, east and then back again. Swaps, conventions you name it. Comes back, grows em out and when deemed ready, offers them to you.
To me, that is worthy of every penny asked for, my problem like our good horsebreeder, is when beyond that, people are getting paid to ride the coat tails of that labor and it's the name that is the only value. For example selling a coral that looks like a calcified booger, but hold firm asking 2 bills on it because it lineated from Tyree? Lame :/
I understand the frustration, and have thought about this myself before. I just dont see this as a real option to the average hobbyist. Could be great for personal satisfaction on a receipt level from a distributor such as ORA or Live Aquaria. But beyond that it would like mentioned before fall back to trust.

Copying, forging would be too easy for a kid and his nano when he starts a semester short on book funds.

-Justin

 

[RevHtree]

If this were to happen, but as you mentioned will not, how would I trade or sell a piece that I have papers to from say tyree? I mean I am going to grow mine out and sell some or trade for better corals so how would I do that?

Sorry I am dumb to how the dog owners do it so i may be missing it totally.

 

[DNickell]

Another aspect to this debate might be that with the current ecological trends heading the way the are it may be very important before long to have a system in place to document point of origin for corals and fish, and chain of custody.

Being able to document farmed vs. wild collected may very soon be of critical importance. It might be preferrable for the hobby to "police" itself in this regard rather than waiting for legislators or international bodies to do it. Just my thoughts...

All that runs tangential, I would think, to issues of "predigree" or "most celebrated dealer" status.

 

[fittiger]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12949284#post12949284 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Justin74
Not exactly true. In all fairness to Steve Tyree, he doesnt get first dibs on his stock. There was extreme amounts of footwork, gas, time, related shipping expenses, and relattionships to be made in order for him to provide the corals listed on reeffarmers. He's not the first main gate inspector of everything that is pretty. But there is a select few that are, and just as many like you and me that have stumbled across the LFS and found that one brownie that turned into a gem. He caters too and seeks these people out(as well as vice versa) so you dont have to. Up and down the west coast, east and then back again. Swaps, conventions you name it. Comes back, grows em out and when deemed ready, offers them to you.

This is kind of the problem with name brand/designer corals and this whole arguement of lineage. Sure, he does all this leg work to find all these nice corals from all over the country and from other reefers, but will Jon Doe get any credit for this coral that Tyree (just as an example) or whomever is selling Jon's coral for $200/ 1/2" frag. Can Jon Doe now sell frags of his own for $200, afterall, Tyree got it from him, but nobody's gonna pay Jon because it doesn't have the sewn on label. And if people buying this coral from Tyree himself can then show "lineage" from Tyree's coral and sell it off for $200 why can't Jon Doe. These are corals people, they are not magically or divinely created in Tyree's tank.

My opinion is this is simply a brilliant marketing strategy and bravo to those on the top floor for doing it. The only problem is now every online vendor wants to discover and name his own decent to nice looking corals, slap on a LE label and sell you a polyp for over a hundred dollars. This only allows everyone to increase their prices for the not so nice specimens and the price of corals all around just keep going up.

Most of the "knock-offs" that are sold are very likely to do just as well as a Tyree if it is kept in optimal conditions.

 

[gcarroll]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12959656#post12959656 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fittiger
Sure, he does all this leg work to find all these nice corals from all over the country and from other reefers, but will Jon Doe get any credit for this coral that Tyree (just as an example) or whomever is selling Jon's coral for $200/ 1/2" frag.

Yes, Tyree does not hide the source of the coral. Steve will also provide a link to Jon's email if Jon so chooses so choose. Many don't want to be bothered so they decline. Some don't even want their names mentioned as having the coral.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12959656#post12959656 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fittiger
Can Jon Doe now sell frags of his own for $200, afterall, Tyree got it from him, but nobody's gonna pay Jon because it doesn't have the sewn on label.

Wrong, if he has it and they want it they will pay. The real question is whether or not Jon is willing to frag.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12959656#post12959656 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fittiger
And if people buying this coral from Tyree himself can then show "lineage" from Tyree's coral and sell it off for $200 why can't Jon Doe.

He can and he does. I have personally purchased frags from Jon himself and they were for sale for $250, not $200.

 

[Justin74]

My sentiments exactly Greg, thanks. If you got to reeffarmers right now Tyree usually has a nice exerpt on the history of the coral along with who it came from. And like Greg mentioned most I have encountered anyway, DO sell their frags at that price. Usually the prices are set between Steve and the farmer. There are also a handfull of people that purposefully seek out Tyree so that he can look at there exotic collection and hopefully deem their coral worthy of his attention and more importantly his web sight. Why? Advertisement and hype, pure and simple.

-Justin

 

[seapug]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12943912#post12943912 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by OIB
It's economics 101. It has nothing to do with being LE. All that menas is good ol "SUPPLY an DEMAND". If the diver goes into the waters off the coast of Australia and gets a spectacular looking pink chalice with a neon green rim breaks it in half and then sells them to 2 different people and one guy in New Zealand gets his and puts it in his tank never to be heard from again and the other person just happens to be a guy by the name of Steve Tyree, is it fair that the guy that got the identical piece cannot claim liniage to the same piece? This happens all the time in this hobby. People just need to get over the whole LE thing. Its a big ocean out there full of identical looking corals. The good Lord didnt make just one and ship it to Steve. If it looks like a rose and smells like a rose then chances are it is a rose. Same goes for coral. One thing that you see happening in this hobby is more an more suppliers arepopping up and hence giving more of an opportunity for additional Rare/LE pieces to be captured and then sold, thats why you see it more and more these days. It's only limited or rare until the next diver finds the same coral.

AMEN!

 

[fittiger]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12960307#post12960307 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gcarroll
Yes, Tyree does not hide the source of the coral. Steve will also provide a link to Jon's email if Jon so chooses so choose. Many don't want to be bothered so they decline. Some don't even want their names mentioned as having the coral.
Wrong, if he has it and they want it they will pay. The real question is whether or not Jon is willing to frag.
He can and he does. I have personally purchased frags from Jon himself and they were for sale for $250, not $200.

I did not intend to direct my post to Steve himself, which is why I put "for an example." It was more a reference to his name mentioned above. These were meant to be generic statements about "designer" coral sellers. I'm sorry I did not make that clear. I also apologize to Steve for using his name as no offense was directed at him as a person. I personally have never bought a coral from reeffarmers so I definitely can not speak for the quality of this company (although I did email requesting information about a certain coral on 3 occasions and never received a response).

Simplified, my point was that these same corals were probably originally bought for well less than half of current selling price. Now with a name brand and a limited edition status, they triple in price. I could have a number of equally beautiful corals shown to do well for a number of years in captivity that would not sell for near this cost, only because I am not well known. IMO, Lineage is nothing more than a status symbol used to further a marketing scheme and keep coral prices inflated.

Then again, I would pay top dollar for a coral I liked from Steve more for the fact that he guarantees his specimens free from the common nasty parasites that can decimate our reefs. Lineage does not help in this situation at all.

 

[gcarroll]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12961008#post12961008 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by fittiger
I could have a number of equally beautiful corals shown to do well for a number of years in captivity that would not sell for near this cost, only because I am not well known.

Bottom line is that if the coral is really nice and unique you can command a high price. I sell at a few of the local frags swaps and command the same price from my efflo frags as many get for Pink Lemonade frags. My efflo is not a limited edition. No Tyree LE attached to the name but no one seems to pass it up.