How many people live with ich, how many eradicate ich?

[DrPat]

I didn't mean a fallow period but rather that according to some people the Ich just dies out on it's own accord even with fish in the tank.

I AM NOT SAYING IT DOES!!! Just curious if there is any truth at all in this idea.

No not a chance ick may subside because survivors had some degree of immunity prior to the infection or lived through it and developed resistance. Ick will not die off.Never read that or experienced it.

 

[Paul B]

West bab I see your an old salt too

Not to far, about 20 minutes. Yes we are old salts. Probably the oldest salts on here.

No not a chance ick may subside because survivors had some degree of immunity prior to the infection or lived through it and developed resistance. Ick will not die off.Never read that or experienced it.

I agree with this.

 

[snake42490]

I have read multiple studies on ich that will die off after about 11 months. They can only inbreed 16 cycles before the parasite can not free swim and it dies off. Now the reason nobody in the hobby sees this happen is because. You add a coral, you add an invert or a fish during these 11 months that has ich on it that hasn't been in the system. The second you introduce another strain of ich it starts the clock over. Even if the same strain of ich is introduced from another fish, the ich that is in the system will then reproduce. Hope that clears things up. Now the only way one is going to make it those months is if you have very healthy fish that are either in breeding beast mode, or have a very good immune system from feeding well. Otherwise they won't live those 11 months out


I can also say I have never personally seen this happen, but I have read out of university publishings that this is what they found. I would like to think we can trust marine biologists that do this kind of testing for a living! I will see if I can't put a link up to the journal entries on it.

 

[Reefnation.Jon]

I have read multiple studies on ich that will die off after about 11 months. They can only inbreed 16 cycles before the parasite can not free swim and it dies off. Now the reason nobody in the hobby sees this happen is because. You add a coral, you add an invert or a fish during these 11 months that has ich on it that hasn't been in the system. The second you introduce another strain of ich it starts the clock over. Even if the same strain of ich is introduced from another fish, the ich that is in the system will then reproduce. Hope that clears things up. Now the only way one is going to make it those months is if you have very healthy fish that are either in breeding beast mode, or have a very good immune system from feeding well. Otherwise they won't live those 11 months out


I can also say I have never personally seen this happen, but I have read out of university publishings that this is what they found. I would like to think we can trust marine biologists that do this kind of testing for a living! I will see if I can't put a link up to the journal entries on it.

Good post Snake.

 

[DrPat]

I have read multiple studies on ich that will die off after about 11 months. They can only inbreed 16 cycles before the parasite can not free swim and it dies off. Now the reason nobody in the hobby sees this happen is because. You add a coral, you add an invert or a fish during these 11 months that has ich on it that hasn't been in the system. The second you introduce another strain of ich it starts the clock over. Even if the same strain of ich is introduced from another fish, the ich that is in the system will then reproduce. Hope that clears things up. Now the only way one is going to make it those months is if you have very healthy fish that are either in breeding beast mode, or have a very good immune system from feeding well. Otherwise they won't live those 11 months out


I can also say I have never personally seen this happen, but I have read out of university publishings that this is what they found. I would like to think we can trust marine biologists that do this kind of testing for a living! I will see if I can't put a link up to the journal entries on it.

hi snake
so did the study concluded that this will happen with fish in the tank? if so why do the free swimming stop reinfecting the fish? can you add a link to that study i would like to read it.
thank you

 

[nynick]

hi snake
so did the study concluded that this will happen with fish in the tank? if so why do the free swimming stop reinfecting the fish? can you add a link to that study i would like to read it.
thank you

The idea was that they degenerate every time they split and sexual reproduction fixes this.

I have read this a few times lately but have never been able to find a source. Given the amount of miracles we are presented with in this hobby on a daily basis it left me a little skeptical. I was also wondering how useful it could be since we have no way of knowing how many unrelated parasites we started off with.

I would love to read the source though, if anyone can find it.

 

[javsku]

If you go back to the beginning and read going forward, you will find that I wrote many of those replies. I spend very little time on RC these days with the exception of one thread that I maintain. I used to spend a fair amount of time in this forum, but after this reply, will be doing so rarely.

However, a reply is only as good as the knowledge of the individual doing so. The only leopard wrasse I do not quarantine with tank tranfer is the Choati and for that I recommend having a mature fully cycled observation tank that is mature and has had no fish ever living in it. The reason is that the odds of success with the Choati are very small, some would say slim and none. These are not peer reviewed threads so caveat emptor, if you want those use Google Scholar.

One additional problem with leopard wrasses is that they are jet lagged and have a biological clock that is contra that of our tanks. Makes them out at night until they catch up.

Agreed, I have two Meleagris leopard wrasses and I quarantined both of them. Tuppaware with sand is a must but very easy. I have had my large female that is now transitioning into a male for over 2yrs.

I am a huge advocate for the tank transfer method. It is very simple and easy in my opinion and I successfully beat ich with this method. I do the tank transfer method with any new fish and up to this date I have not lost one due to this method, including more sensitive fish.


I have made mistakes in this hobby and I have learned from them. I have come to realize that there is an incredible amount of knowledge on this website. I have learned so much from members that have posted their experiences with success and failures in this hobby. Their passion and love for the hobby is what helps newcomers have the best chance for success. But you have to be willing to do things right and not take the easy road.

 

[snake42490]

hi snake
so did the study concluded that this will happen with fish in the tank? if so why do the free swimming stop reinfecting the fish? can you add a link to that study i would like to read it.
thank you

I'm still trying to find the one I read. Basically, think of inbreeding in any animal, it starts to pull out certain traits and they aren't always the good ones. You keep doing this over and over and you get deformities. After so many cycles the parasite goes through when they start hatching they are "deformed" and basically just can't attach to the fish to start the cycle over again. All it takes is one deformity to start having issues. But you have to realize unless you are feeding live foods or very quality foods and your fish are in what I call breeding condition or if they have survived a ich infestation within 6 months to build up a partial immunity they might not be able to survive that long. Now great and all, but I don't think most people here are able to make it this long just because of what kind of husbandry they have. The parasite would probably win over the fish. A lot of times people think their tanks are doing great, but then a heater goes out and the temperature crashes. Or the salinity crashes, then a couple days later you see the parasite. Basically the fish got a "cold" and a weakened immune system and the parasite took hold. Also notice I said crash! Because a slight change in salinity or temperature won't affect a tank much

 

[snake42490]

Here is part of the article... Grr, I can't find the whole thing.

Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.


I think the site that was hosting the pdf took it down.. But here is the name of it, maybe you guys could try and find it.


Don: Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1994. Cryotocaryon irritans (Ciliophora): photoperiod and transmission in marine fish. Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom 74:535-542.

 

[HumbleFish]

Snake, I don't know if you've seen this publication. It's interesting to read as well.

 

[nynick]

34 cycles, not the number I had hoped for.....

Not sure how useful this would be for aquariums even if we were absolutely certain we only started with 1 parasite. 34 cycles would probably not mean 10-11 months in your regular tank.

Guess it is good news if your Tang had Ich 4 years ago and you have not added any livestock since.

 

[Paul B]

Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies.

I have Burgess book in my hand (I am typing with the other hand) and even when the book was written originally in 1973 I disagreed with much of the information. I think the date you cited of 1994 was the original study they did in 73.
In the book he lists quinine, acriflavine and copper to cure Icthyophthirius. I don't feel that quinine or acriflavine alone will cure it. He also lists potassium permanganate which is something we used in the 70s but it didn't do much then and it doesn't do much now.
He also recommends a partial change of water to cure Pop Eye. These were things we tried in the 70s but that was a long time ago. I am not sure how he determined how many times a paracite will divide but I am leary of his test results.

DrPat, you have not been on this site for a long time but be warned, these ich threads can and will go on forever usually resulting in an argument. There are just to many theories and rumors. You are knowledgable and hopefully can impart some fact in this thread. I have my own Ideas but like to stay out of ich and ground probe threads as I got tired. So have fun and a great day.

 

[nynick]

There is a study made by them in 1994.

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=4390852

Given that the numbers are correcty quoted it would still be of limited use for the home aquarium. Life cycles of 5 days to 11 weeks and max 34 cycle viability would leave you Ich free in what.... 1 to 20 years IF you only started with one parasite and you never added more livestock during that period.

WOOHOOO!

 

[Paul B]

There is a study made by them in 1994.

OK I see that, I still think they just changed the date on the study from 74. :crazy1:

Either way I am leary of their research. It's just me. :bum:

 

[snake42490]

I agree with PaulB on those outdated methods that they mentioned in the book. I do know that inbreeding does cause deformities. So in theory yes, ich would eventually self destruct by multiplying through itself. But, I think the biggest point is time frame to have that done by.

With that being said I'm going to stick to my feeding good foods, tank transfer method and the occasional copper lol!

 

[DrPat]

Paul I see your point in the short time I,ve been adding my 2 cents here and there.
Even if it is true that ick will self destruct in X number of generations it still has to have host to reproduce .So there will still be sick and dying fish and who wants that as with any disease in veterinary medicine cure and eradicate. the rest is for reseachers to dispute we want the practicle cure.

 

[DrPat]

Just to give you guys some insight into the 1969 era of marine aquarium medicine .back then we would treat ick by adding huge amounts of tap water [temp adjusted] to our hospital tanks. Allow water to evaporate and add more fresh water every 2-3 days hypo right .Well back then we did not yet know about hypo we assumed that it was the chlorine in the NYC water that was reducing ick.But as know now the osmotic gradient crushes the ick cell.We didnt have google or a forum just hardcore aquarist spending a lot of money trying to figure it all out. We are still at it but we are light years ahead , and because we can hash it out we will continue to deepen our ability to keep these critters alive.

 

[snake42490]

Did your so called hypo treatment seem to work better back then? without having to drop salinity as much?

 

[Paul B]

Just to give you guys some insight into the 1969 era of marine aquarium medicine .back then we would treat ick by adding huge amounts of tap water [temp adjusted] to our hospital tanks. Allow water to evaporate and add more fresh water every 2-3 days hypo right

I used pennies, 20 to the gallon as per Robert Straughn the Father of salt water fish keeping.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I used pennies, 20 to the gallon as per Robert Straughn the Father of salt water fish keeping.

Yeah, I remember. Adding copper pennies was standard. Now many folks are scared to death of it. I remember a thread from someone who had a copper part from an end-cap drop in the tank and was fished out in seconds. He was sure he had just nuked his whole tank. I've seen people panic when they hear that I.O. salt (and others) actually contain some copper.