How much do you get for your Black Ocellaris?
- Thread starter colby
- Start date
David M
New member
Colby, you really don't get it, do you 
What they sell for in Arkansas has nothing to do with what they sell for in Oakland 
Just teasing you dude but it's really true, you need to do some local market research and call Randy as I suggested. Here in So Cal I get $9 for gsm's from retailers, that is the going wholesale price in LA for wc so they are happy to pay that for cb. Local wholesalers have had the black oc's at 29 for the past month or two. As stated it varies with supply. My guess is that your prices there are similar to here.
What they sell for in Arkansas has nothing to do with what they sell for in Oakland Just teasing you dude but it's really true, you need to do some local market research and call Randy as I suggested. Here in So Cal I get $9 for gsm's from retailers, that is the going wholesale price in LA for wc so they are happy to pay that for cb. Local wholesalers have had the black oc's at 29 for the past month or two. As stated it varies with supply. My guess is that your prices there are similar to here.
stykthyn
New member
I am jealous, but I was actually referring to Colby, I'm not knocking him cause anybody trying to further the industry is a good thing, but last I heard his parents wouldnt even let him set up a QT tank. I only have 3 breeding pairs of fish at the moment and between the rack and all the tubs and equipment for rots and growout I am consuming an awful lot of space, not to mention the huge electric bill all the equipment is running me. I know that when I finally got my first post met clowns all I could see were the $ signs, but now I can honestly say I do it for love of the hobby. broken down dollar for dollar profit is not that much. At least not fish wise. corals are soooo much easier and make much better money. That aside ask any pet store what their money maker is, it's not livestock. it's drygoods, equipment, and services.
colby
In Memoriam
Well my parents wont let me set up another tank for QT because they dont see the "value" in it...grrr. But I do have the "resources" (pairs of fish...) to produce the number of clowns I am discussing 
... and as far as "local" market research..I have done as much as I can via retailers and some wholesalers...(unfortunatley I have not been able to get great answers or they have varied quite a bit..so this websire includes my "local are research")however the more knowledge I have the better prepared I will be to push for the price I should get. And finally I havent gotten any real answers to a few of my key questions and since this is the only place that seems to have a good amount of clownfish dedicated aquarists I have to keep reitterating my question in an attepmt to get answers...for example..I have been told by several sources I CAN sell 2000 clowns a month no prob at $5 a piece...and from my own personal experience raisng Ocellaris it costs me about .75 cents a fish to get them to saleable size...(granted that is raising smaller groups of fish numbered in the 100's, so I dont know the price break down in the 1000's...) it would seem given the facts that I shoud be able to profit $8,000.00 a month. However I have been told by these same "credable" sources that such profits are not possible, but NOBODY has given me a good reason why...where do the hidden expenditures come from then? That is wht I am trying to find out, so to that extent I apologize if I am being abnoxious. However I feel that it is important that I gather all the knowledge I need before I purchase the extra equipment and business liscence in an attempt to make this business work. So consrtuctive advice will be much appreciated, again I apologize if I am being a thorn in your sides, just loking for info.
Colby
... and as far as "local" market research..I have done as much as I can via retailers and some wholesalers...(unfortunatley I have not been able to get great answers or they have varied quite a bit..so this websire includes my "local are research")however the more knowledge I have the better prepared I will be to push for the price I should get. And finally I havent gotten any real answers to a few of my key questions and since this is the only place that seems to have a good amount of clownfish dedicated aquarists I have to keep reitterating my question in an attepmt to get answers...for example..I have been told by several sources I CAN sell 2000 clowns a month no prob at $5 a piece...and from my own personal experience raisng Ocellaris it costs me about .75 cents a fish to get them to saleable size...(granted that is raising smaller groups of fish numbered in the 100's, so I dont know the price break down in the 1000's...) it would seem given the facts that I shoud be able to profit $8,000.00 a month. However I have been told by these same "credable" sources that such profits are not possible, but NOBODY has given me a good reason why...where do the hidden expenditures come from then? That is wht I am trying to find out, so to that extent I apologize if I am being abnoxious. However I feel that it is important that I gather all the knowledge I need before I purchase the extra equipment and business liscence in an attempt to make this business work. So consrtuctive advice will be much appreciated, again I apologize if I am being a thorn in your sides, just loking for info.Colby
stykthyn
New member
in that case your best bet would be to travel to all the places you are willing to sell your fish to and start bargaining over prices and how many fish they would like to buy from you in a month. each local is different so price and demand wont be the same. talk to the markets in your area and see what they are paying for wholesale fish and see if you can compete with that. any $ figure we give you will be completely speculative. say for instance I raised 2000 clowns. There are only 3 stores here that sell SW fish. I doubt I could push that many clowns in a month without having to drive extensivly or ship. all of which would be eating my profit margin, not to mention the 2000 that would be growing out for next month. While you being in a larger area with undoubtedly more customers could possibly push 2000 a month. do some iinvestigation and get a feel for the local market. If you are serious about this make it a legit business with a letterhead and a tax id. hand out flyers and questionaires. information is valuable and the more you have the better you will be able to set yourself up.
Juck
New member
Let me give you some free advice, if you want to succeed in business,, you need to get off your arse and do the work yourself.
Here's an example,,, go out there on the web,,,, cruise the many many forums and BB's that deal with franchising. OK,, now find someone who has a McDonalds franchise,,, now,,, ask them how much money it cost them to start-up,, and how much money they make every year
I guarantee you won't get an honest answer,, or any answer at all. A McDonalds owner in Alaska would not PI5S on a potential McDonalds franchisee in Alabama,,, even if he was on fire.
If you're going into this to make money,,, as a business,,, you're on your own,,, why should anyone here help a potential competitor? (Don't waste your flames,,,I'm only saying what a lot of folk are thinking).
If you want to find out how much you can get for your fish,, breed them,,, raise them to market-size,,,, then try and sell them where you live,, that is the only way that YOU can know what YOU can get for YOUR Black Ocellaris. Asking folk here is a waste of time.
So first,, let's see you raise 2000 Ocellaris a month. Then keep them for 4 or so months in an appropriate grow-out system (let's say 10 fish per gallon,, more for Maroons) ,, so you're looking at 800+ gallons of grow out space,,, plus filtration,,, plus food,,,, plus electricity,,,, plus your time. Costly,, costly,, but that is where you need to go.
This is where you are right now: you can't even justify a 10g QT tank and your siblings are dumping their loose change (and god knows what else) in your tanks.
Here's an example,,, go out there on the web,,,, cruise the many many forums and BB's that deal with franchising. OK,, now find someone who has a McDonalds franchise,,, now,,, ask them how much money it cost them to start-up,, and how much money they make every year
I guarantee you won't get an honest answer,, or any answer at all. A McDonalds owner in Alaska would not PI5S on a potential McDonalds franchisee in Alabama,,, even if he was on fire.
If you're going into this to make money,,, as a business,,, you're on your own,,, why should anyone here help a potential competitor? (Don't waste your flames,,,I'm only saying what a lot of folk are thinking).
If you want to find out how much you can get for your fish,, breed them,,, raise them to market-size,,,, then try and sell them where you live,, that is the only way that YOU can know what YOU can get for YOUR Black Ocellaris. Asking folk here is a waste of time.
So first,, let's see you raise 2000 Ocellaris a month. Then keep them for 4 or so months in an appropriate grow-out system (let's say 10 fish per gallon,, more for Maroons) ,, so you're looking at 800+ gallons of grow out space,,, plus filtration,,, plus food,,,, plus electricity,,,, plus your time. Costly,, costly,, but that is where you need to go.
This is where you are right now: you can't even justify a 10g QT tank and your siblings are dumping their loose change (and god knows what else) in your tanks.
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mwp
In Memoriam
Colby, the BIGGEST problem I see in all your figures is that you're not being realistic with the selling prices you'll get at the VOLUME you want to produce. A fairly stable and long time shop in the Chicago area pretty much moves a few dozen ocellaris in a month, and that's freakin' NEMO that sells probably better than any other saltwater fish.
Based on what various internet etailers from around the country are selling Black OC's for, $15 each at 3/4-1" long is a good price IF you can move everything you're producing to retailers, but keep in mind, the AVERAGE shop owner may only want to purchase 6 a week.
IF you're going to sell all your fish at a wholesale level, you're gonna have TONS of legwork and well, at the volume you want to sell, who's gonna have the time to do all that legwork? YOU? I thought you were busy breeding? Gonna hire someone?
Conversely, if you want to dump 1000 ocellaris a month all in one shot, the only place you have a realistic chance of doing that is by selling to a wholesaler...cut all your "wholesale" prices in half and at best that's what a wholesaler is willing to give you. That just slashed your profits by 50% MINIMUM, more more likely.
What about boxes, bags, O2 etc..? Are you going to deliver the fish in buckets? Since you're breeding, not importing, you're not going to have hundreds of styros at your disposal...you're gonn have to source these or even worse, go out and buy them!
I haven't even mentioned facilities and equipment. There's a SERIOUS investment in both to ramp up to the production level you want to get to, unless of course you're financially independant and wealthy and can just throw money at problems....eventually that might get you somewhere.
There is just SO MUCH involved that a lot of us haven't seen you consider in your prior posts.
Running a 400 tank Cichlid Hatchery was a daily task of feeding 4 times per day.
Then there's the breeding aspect which you never know WHEN it's gonna happen (well, kinda, but not really). We were fortunate, you could incubate the eggs artificially in a tumbler and when they hatched, just release them. There's a bit more work involved with clownfish unless you perfect artifical incubation.
Saturday was a day long marathon of water changes and maintenance, and all we had to do was run a hose..no mixing saltwater. Are you gonna haul buckets, rack up the water bill with a python, or have a real setup where you can just drain waste water? But wait, that's a LOT of saltwater to waste..perhaps you can reclaim it (think macroalgae farm etc..)
I haven't even started talking about packing orders and delivering them. That was my job too and you NEVER KNEW when you'd have to do it? Sure, I only serviced 20 shops...not every one ordered every week...heck some were only monthly orders at best. Bagging, boxing and delivery still ate up 2-3 days per week.
We haven't even started to talk about BILLING. Boucned Checks...late payments, no payments, credits for "doa's" and fish that didn't do well once added to the tanks..prepare to eat some on that end too. Don't think for a second every shop is going to pay you when you deliver...I was in the retail business too long to let you think that everyone has the cash for what they order when they order it.
I'm not trying to be a pessimist or discourage you and you're definitely not "competition" of mine, but your continued questions here deserve an honest opinions. The best advice I can give is to start small and grow organically.
I ramped SlipperOrchid.com up from 16 square feet of growing area to 30K in sales in the first year and I reinvested all the profits during that year back into my breeding only to have ALL my broodstock WIPED OUT by a parasitic infestation that I could not successfully treat due to the fact that I was an under lights - in home grower. $17k in orchids died in a month. My honest-to-god profits for the year come tax time when I figured it all out was around $600.00 and that DIDN'T even INCLUDE the loss off the broodstock! To run that business was 2 full weekend days + 2 weekday evenings packing + at least 3 trips to USPS and FedEx per week. When I had a bunch of dead orchids and $600 to show for all that effort, I scaled back quite a bit. Since it WASN'T my full time gig it didn't put me in the poor house.
All my experience in the aquarium industry tells me you better REALLY REALLY REALLY LOVE doing water changes and well, the rest of it, because you're not gonna get rich...the lucky ones are comfortable at best. At least here in Chicago, 4/5 new pet shops last less than 5 years....that should tell ya something.
Formulate a Business Plan, lay it all out, and post it here! I bet a lot of folks will take a look at it and give you their OPINIONS. Keep in mind that's all ANY of the responses here can really be - I'm not in your shoes and your situation, thus why I can only keep relaying my experiences to hope that you can gleam something of use from them.
FWIW,
MP
Based on what various internet etailers from around the country are selling Black OC's for, $15 each at 3/4-1" long is a good price IF you can move everything you're producing to retailers, but keep in mind, the AVERAGE shop owner may only want to purchase 6 a week.
IF you're going to sell all your fish at a wholesale level, you're gonna have TONS of legwork and well, at the volume you want to sell, who's gonna have the time to do all that legwork? YOU? I thought you were busy breeding? Gonna hire someone?
Conversely, if you want to dump 1000 ocellaris a month all in one shot, the only place you have a realistic chance of doing that is by selling to a wholesaler...cut all your "wholesale" prices in half and at best that's what a wholesaler is willing to give you. That just slashed your profits by 50% MINIMUM, more more likely.
What about boxes, bags, O2 etc..? Are you going to deliver the fish in buckets? Since you're breeding, not importing, you're not going to have hundreds of styros at your disposal...you're gonn have to source these or even worse, go out and buy them!
I haven't even mentioned facilities and equipment. There's a SERIOUS investment in both to ramp up to the production level you want to get to, unless of course you're financially independant and wealthy and can just throw money at problems....eventually that might get you somewhere.
There is just SO MUCH involved that a lot of us haven't seen you consider in your prior posts.
Running a 400 tank Cichlid Hatchery was a daily task of feeding 4 times per day.
Then there's the breeding aspect which you never know WHEN it's gonna happen (well, kinda, but not really). We were fortunate, you could incubate the eggs artificially in a tumbler and when they hatched, just release them. There's a bit more work involved with clownfish unless you perfect artifical incubation.
Saturday was a day long marathon of water changes and maintenance, and all we had to do was run a hose..no mixing saltwater. Are you gonna haul buckets, rack up the water bill with a python, or have a real setup where you can just drain waste water? But wait, that's a LOT of saltwater to waste..perhaps you can reclaim it (think macroalgae farm etc..)
I haven't even started talking about packing orders and delivering them. That was my job too and you NEVER KNEW when you'd have to do it? Sure, I only serviced 20 shops...not every one ordered every week...heck some were only monthly orders at best. Bagging, boxing and delivery still ate up 2-3 days per week.
We haven't even started to talk about BILLING. Boucned Checks...late payments, no payments, credits for "doa's" and fish that didn't do well once added to the tanks..prepare to eat some on that end too. Don't think for a second every shop is going to pay you when you deliver...I was in the retail business too long to let you think that everyone has the cash for what they order when they order it.
I'm not trying to be a pessimist or discourage you and you're definitely not "competition" of mine, but your continued questions here deserve an honest opinions. The best advice I can give is to start small and grow organically.
I ramped SlipperOrchid.com up from 16 square feet of growing area to 30K in sales in the first year and I reinvested all the profits during that year back into my breeding only to have ALL my broodstock WIPED OUT by a parasitic infestation that I could not successfully treat due to the fact that I was an under lights - in home grower. $17k in orchids died in a month. My honest-to-god profits for the year come tax time when I figured it all out was around $600.00 and that DIDN'T even INCLUDE the loss off the broodstock! To run that business was 2 full weekend days + 2 weekday evenings packing + at least 3 trips to USPS and FedEx per week. When I had a bunch of dead orchids and $600 to show for all that effort, I scaled back quite a bit. Since it WASN'T my full time gig it didn't put me in the poor house.
All my experience in the aquarium industry tells me you better REALLY REALLY REALLY LOVE doing water changes and well, the rest of it, because you're not gonna get rich...the lucky ones are comfortable at best. At least here in Chicago, 4/5 new pet shops last less than 5 years....that should tell ya something.
Formulate a Business Plan, lay it all out, and post it here! I bet a lot of folks will take a look at it and give you their OPINIONS. Keep in mind that's all ANY of the responses here can really be - I'm not in your shoes and your situation, thus why I can only keep relaying my experiences to hope that you can gleam something of use from them.
FWIW,
MP
colby
In Memoriam
MWP,
Thanx for the advice...a few of the things you mentioned may not be large issues...
For example my local lfs's said they can move about 100 Ocellaris a month and they would buy em from me for $5 a piece...wholesalers I spoke woth quoted me $4 per fish for several thousand. So either way I go I will still get a good price and the way I have figured it I could sell to 15-20ish lfs and br able to sell all the fish at about $5 a piece....
I do not intend on ever shipping....
Moreover, I have raised clowns before and the number I eventually intend to be producing will not require a "significant" amount of space...
Thanx for the advice,
Colby
Thanx for the advice...a few of the things you mentioned may not be large issues...
For example my local lfs's said they can move about 100 Ocellaris a month and they would buy em from me for $5 a piece...wholesalers I spoke woth quoted me $4 per fish for several thousand. So either way I go I will still get a good price and the way I have figured it I could sell to 15-20ish lfs and br able to sell all the fish at about $5 a piece....
I do not intend on ever shipping....
Moreover, I have raised clowns before and the number I eventually intend to be producing will not require a "significant" amount of space...
Thanx for the advice,
Colby
colby
In Memoriam
Well seeing as how I live about an hour away from the wholesalers and have many retalers within an hours drive as well, I planned on simply delivering them all. And as far s how many will fit in the back of the car....I should be able to fit enough fish into the back of my truck...how many fish per bag/gallon of water does ORA for example ship?
mwp
In Memoriam
Colby, again, this is definitely not a slam, but comments like "how many fish per bag/gallon of water does ORA for example ship" - that's why some folks are kinda "down" on your prospects and perhaps not giving you enough of the "answers" you're looking for. How ORA ships isn't really going to be relevant to you at all since you're not ORA nor are you SHIPPING, but rather just delivering locally. To give you an idea, when wild Ocellaris come from Bali they are shipped individually in bags smaller than a can of soda, yet when they come in from other places they may be in a huge back with tons of oxygen. Maybe read up on packing in one of the back issues of Coral Magazine.
"Business Plan" Colby, "Business Plan"! I'm still on the younger side myself, but I get the impression that you're still in high school. If so, you may have a class available to you along the lines of "Entreprenuership", if so I HIGHLY suggest enrolling.
NOT meant as a slam, just some sound advice from someone who's been there. If you're REALLY serious, put it all in a business plan and have more experienced folks take a look at it. That way, line by line, someone can go through and say "OK, this looks good, but this, this is totally out of line, this needs to change, this value is too low, this one too high etc..".
BTW, that Business Plan might be the ticket to show your parents that you're serious and that a 10 gallon QT tank might be a worthwhile investment. Personally, if your folks won't let you set up a 10 gallon tank (I hear ya, Renee treats my breeding the same way!), I kinda wonder how you're going to set up ALL THE TANKS you'd need to get to the production levels you're talking about. Seriously, how are you going to get away with that? It doesn't make any sense to me.
FWIW,
MP
"Business Plan" Colby, "Business Plan"! I'm still on the younger side myself, but I get the impression that you're still in high school. If so, you may have a class available to you along the lines of "Entreprenuership", if so I HIGHLY suggest enrolling.
NOT meant as a slam, just some sound advice from someone who's been there. If you're REALLY serious, put it all in a business plan and have more experienced folks take a look at it. That way, line by line, someone can go through and say "OK, this looks good, but this, this is totally out of line, this needs to change, this value is too low, this one too high etc..".
BTW, that Business Plan might be the ticket to show your parents that you're serious and that a 10 gallon QT tank might be a worthwhile investment. Personally, if your folks won't let you set up a 10 gallon tank (I hear ya, Renee treats my breeding the same way!), I kinda wonder how you're going to set up ALL THE TANKS you'd need to get to the production levels you're talking about. Seriously, how are you going to get away with that? It doesn't make any sense to me.
FWIW,
MP
David M
New member
Colby is ideally located, it will not be hard to move 2000/ month with a good portion of them going direct to wholesale. His situation is not much different than mine, he can have Northern California and I'll have the South
Colby, once you have a substantial number of fish your costs are going to rise quickly. You are going to start buying "serious" equipment, not hobby level stuff. You can easily pay $500 for a pump and $2000 for a skimmer. Look through an AES catalog, it will shock you. You are going to want UV and a couple TurboTwists won't do it either You will want to protect your interests, you will buy a generator. You will hire an electrician to insatll it for you and buy fuel and pay a service company to maintain it. You will still have disasters, I doubt any commercial breeding facility has gone long without them. Because there WILL be disasters you will need to protect yourself against them, you will have redundant systems and you will have "reserve" broodstock, it will cost you to keep them (completely seperate from the main facility) but they will give nothing in return, they just sit around eating your food and using your electricity. You'd be a fool not to have them though, preferably in a seperate room or better yet a seperate building. These are just a few of the things I'm thinking about these days as I prepare to ramp up myself. One thing I read in Frank Hoff's book which I totally agree with, DO NOT borrow money to build it up. This is livestock, it's farming. They can get sick, die, or just quit spawning. You will still have to service the debt with no income. Do as everyone reccommends, start small and let it grow, using ONLY money that comes in for expansion. That means it will take time. The market will change, others will enter it. Captive breeding will become a larger and larger part of the industry. Prices will most likely fall. I am NOT basisng my long term projections on todays prices. Any day now some local kid is gonna raise some clowns in his garage and take them straight to MY customers :mad2:
Colby, once you have a substantial number of fish your costs are going to rise quickly. You are going to start buying "serious" equipment, not hobby level stuff. You can easily pay $500 for a pump and $2000 for a skimmer. Look through an AES catalog, it will shock you. You are going to want UV and a couple TurboTwists won't do it either
You will want to protect your interests, you will buy a generator. You will hire an electrician to insatll it for you and buy fuel and pay a service company to maintain it. You will still have disasters, I doubt any commercial breeding facility has gone long without them. Because there WILL be disasters you will need to protect yourself against them, you will have redundant systems and you will have "reserve" broodstock, it will cost you to keep them (completely seperate from the main facility) but they will give nothing in return, they just sit around eating your food and using your electricity. You'd be a fool not to have them though, preferably in a seperate room or better yet a seperate building. These are just a few of the things I'm thinking about these days as I prepare to ramp up myself. One thing I read in Frank Hoff's book which I totally agree with, DO NOT borrow money to build it up. This is livestock, it's farming. They can get sick, die, or just quit spawning. You will still have to service the debt with no income. Do as everyone reccommends, start small and let it grow, using ONLY money that comes in for expansion. That means it will take time. The market will change, others will enter it. Captive breeding will become a larger and larger part of the industry. Prices will most likely fall. I am NOT basisng my long term projections on todays prices. Any day now some local kid is gonna raise some clowns in his garage and take them straight to MY customers :mad2:
Atticus
New member
Don't worry. The 10 gallon QT tank will show its validity when you bring in a beautiful new pair of broodstock that wipe out all of your juveniles and broodstock with brook. Not an uncommon experiance in the least. I also have a hard time seeing you convincing your parents that the increased energy costs, space consumption, mold growing from the ceiling, and the water damaged floor were all worth it if you cannot explain the need for a small 10 gallon QT tank.
