How to treat ICH

[mindistortionx]

I have been noticing that my hippo tang has really really small white spots on him....at first I thought it was micro bubbles....are these parasites? if so how do I get rid of them without killing inverts and/or anything else in the tank....I have a QT tank but I rather keep him in the main tank and have him curred.

 

[paulamrein]

It is probably ich. The only way to cure is isolation. It would be best to take all of your fish out of your tank and QT. Copper may hurt the tangs so hypo is your best bet. leaving your tank fish-free for a period of 4-6 weeks 8 weeks ideal will totally rid all host-needing parasites. All inverts can stay as ich doesn't feed off of inverts. Without a host ich dies. And the treatment of hypo will kill all currently on the fish. I too am in the same boat and started QT just yesterday. I didn't want to take all of my fish out either, I was told by countless people of different "cures" like garlic or "just keep feeding and the natural immune system will cure themselves" Well first off, tangs don't have much natural immunity. Secondly, first outbreak of ich seems trivial, there are a few spots here or there and after a week they seem to go away. "The garlic worked!!1" NO, not at all!! The ich simply went through his cycle of life feeding than voluntarily jumped off, bred hundreds of little ichs just like him and now where there were a few dozen there are a few hundred. Cycle happens again and those few hundred make a few thousand, so on and so forth. In a month or two's time. There could be thousands of ich parasites in the tank, leaving the most immune fish all of a sudden overtaken. This happens in the ocean the same way, but instead of billions of gallons of ocean to disperse from, there is 55 gallons in your tanks, with no where for the fish or the ich to go.
Having said all that, a month and a half and a little wet rodeo getting your fish out don't seem too impractical. Those fish are coming out soon sad to say, once they are out they can either go into a QT or the toilet.
This of course has just been my experience, I am sure you will get others to tell you different. But it is up to you, you are already doing the right thing by asking questions. This is a great spot for answers. But every tank, fish, and keeper are different.

 

[mindistortionx]

so what is this med? "hypo?" or garlic.....I use a UV sterilizer

 

[paulamrein]

UV won't totally take it out of the system. It will only subdue some of the numbers. "hypo" is hyposalinity. Means once the fish are in Qt gradually bringing you salinity down to 1.009. Keep in mind that this is gradual. It should go from 1.024 or where ever you keep it, to 1.009 in about 2 days or so. Basicly the way it works is that the fish has to regulate their body's moisture and they take in alot of water and work the salt out of their system. Inverts and parasites has the same inner body moisture as the saltwater. When it is brought down to near brackish. The ich's body will literally explode. This treatment can't be done with sharks or rays but who has a shark in a 55g? Things to watch out for is 1.009 is like I said close to brackish water, so you need a refractometer to measure salinity. Don't use a swing arm its not accurate enough. Once the 6 weeks are up Gradually bring the water back to your display tanks salinity. keeping the temp stable is another key factor along with evaporation you want to keep it at 1.009. Sounds a little overwhelming at first. But it is not at all hard. And it is completely safe for the fish. There are some studies that say it is good for the fish, they don't have to work as hard to regulate their core moisture so it's saved energy. Depending how many fish are going in the Qt and the size of the Qt you will have to do water changes, which the new water coming in should also be 1.009. but top of evaporation with regular RO if you use RO. Garlic is a myth, there are no studies at all that support the use of garlic as a cure. It is however not at all a bad thing, it stimulates appetite. It can be used to get them to stay eating and happy, but that is it.
Like I said this is all very new to me too. It does work though.

 

[mindistortionx]

wow this is way more complex than I thought.....humm will ich go away on its own? cant you just like wipe them off their bodies? The only reason that I dont want to quaranteen the fish is because the QT tank I have is very small. and I cant put all of my fish in it at the same time.

 

[paulamrein]

Ich buries themselves into their body, it's the white part you see is actually the fish's flesh. They also make a protective coating surrounding the area. There are studies that show after a year or two the strain has been known to cycle out. But we are looking at 30+ generations and outbreaks. Some of the fish may make it. The Tang in question more than likely has only a matter of days maybe weeks. It will consume the tank quickly. Is there any way to get a bigger QT? There are quick fix methods with varied results using fresh water dips. I use a 29 gallon tank, I have 5 smaller fish I have to house. Maybe to save money, you can keep a couple QT's going. The set up is simple just need something to move water and something biological to help with the nitrification process. The have air sponges. You don't need lights, no rock or sand just simple piping for the fish to hide in. There are a few threads on here that are great resources. A couple threads from the top there is great information. Anything written by billsreef will help. Look for the threads on top "cryptocaryon irritants A.K.A Ich..." start with that one. There is and always will be more than one way to do everything in this hobby. In the future, It can't be stressed enough to QT everything wet going into the tank, inverts, corals, rock sand. You don't have to treat them, you just have to keep it isolated for a month or so to kill any hitchhikers.

 

[mindistortionx]

the QT tank that I have is like 10 or 15 G and I just looked at my tang and it looks as if the white spots have almost gone away....there is only like 4 that I really could see.

 

[paulamrein]

It just means they are dropping off and starting a new cycle. It will be at least twice as bad in a few days maybe a week. I'm not trying to scare you or anything I have been in your shoes and it does not go away until it is treated. You can use a plastic bin. You know those big storage bins you can buy at walmart or stores like that (not local, so I'm not sure which stores are in PA.) they come in big containers for cheaper than a tank. The only down side to those is you can't see the fish and how they are doing. Not sure how you can regulate the temp also. But it is a temporary fix, there are some in tank alternatives too. Depending on what your inverts are and coral demands. These are explained in the before threads I mentioned.

 

[mindistortionx]

so if I isolate all of the infected fish or just all of the fish in general.....and treat them together they will be ok? What about inverts?

 

[mindistortionx]

thanks so much for your help.....I am just also worried about filtration in a plastic container

 

[paulamrein]

Leave inverts in the tank, the ich can't feed off of them. Filtration is the same whether it's in glass, acrylic, or plastic. It is important to keep treatment going for the full 6 weeks. You may even lose a fish or two. Everyone looses fish it's the nature of the hobby. The point is not to wipe out the entire tank. Do a lot of reading, google and yahoo key words like hyposalinity, Quarantine tanks, ich treatment, There will be a vast amount of information some may contradict the others. Saltwater hobbist are the most opinionated bunch of people I have ever met. Again as I said before there is always more than one way to do everything. But basic rules apply no matter the variety. Fish must breath, eat, and have low stress. Qt is probably the most debated topic, I have read that not using a quarantine tank is like playing Russian roulette. You never win, some just get to play longer than others.

 

[mindistortionx]

the last time I QTed a fish it died....

 

[paulamrein]

I have had fish die in QT too. The most important thing is that you read and see where you went wrong. There is even a chance you didn't do anything wrong. I can however say that there is a better chance of fish dying in a tank full of ich than a Qt. Do a lot of water changes and watch your levels. Ph, Alk. etc. Nitrates are bad for fish but they can tolerate some. No nitrite, and no ammonia. Qt is a controlled enviornment. You have complete control of all your levels. If you see certain levels go one way or the other there are easy steps you can take to correct them. Most of the time it's a matter of a water change or even some buffer. If the fish are in the QT and they are eating, and the water is fine. There is no reason for it to die. Qt didn't kill the fish, so don't associate the 2 together. That is something those who are against Qt's say all the time. People die in hospitals and you hear people say they hate hospitals and avoid them with everything they are. It is not the hospital that killed them. Same as it not being the QT that kill fish. You can do this!! If I can do it, you can too. It gets easier. I freaked out when I learned I was going to have to clean the cup out of my skimmer. A thousand scenerios started playing of how I was going to screw up cleaning this cup. Eventually the unknown becomes familiar and the first day jitters become common place.

 

[ms71171]

I'm about to have to start hypo and have a few questions.

Since I cannot catch all my fish without taking all my rock out, I'm thinking of taking all of my corals out and placing them in the Rubbermaid tubs for the 4-6 weeks and hypo'ing the main tank.

Will this work? It seems easier to me since the fish get all the stability of the main tank and corals (SPS and Softies) should do ok in the tubs.

Also, I've heard for hypo to be effective, that the salinity drop needs to be rapid within one day to "pop" the ich.

 

[paulamrein]

ms71171 If you have live rock and or live sand you will also need to take that out there is tons of little organisms on the rock that will die in Hypo. Also there is a chance that the ich that is in it's different stages could be buried in the sand and rock where there is higher salinity concentrations where rock and sand trap the saltwater, rendering all treatment useless. True quarantine is done in a separate tank. There are too many variables still left in your DT that you can't readily control in a larger mass of water.
To shed some light on your second question is that yes it needs to be rapid, and sure you can do it within a day, but it depends on the fish. Fish can be just as effected by osmotic shock with raising and lowering the salinities too fast. It is more pronounced and extreme in inverts and parasites but you can damage the fish permenantly with quick drops.

 

[Paul B]

wow this is way more complex than I thought.....humm will ich go away on its own? cant you just like wipe them off their bodies?

This would be great, unfortunately, it won't work. The paracites you see on the body of the fish are not the problem, it is the paracites in the gills that will kill the fish. It is not even the paracites directly that kills the fish, it is the fact that the paracites take up so much space in the gills that the fish can't extract enough oxygen from the water.
By the way, if your fish are not shaking their head sideways fast, scratching on rocks or breathing hard they probably do not have ich.
Good luck.
Paul

 

[tmz]

A few points. First, nice job paulamrein you have summed up alot of information on ich treatment.
Treating the whole tank without moving the fish may be good approach. The tank should be emptied of substrate and rock and invertebrates. If you can provide adequate light, water qualityand flow to these things in bins they'll be fine. You must keep these things in a fishless environment for a peiod of time. The rule of thumb used to be 28 days but recent articles note some crytocartyon cysts can remain viable for up to 72 days.
A uv sterlizer's lethality depends on the amount of radiation delivered to the organism passing through it relative to the organisms size. Relatively small bacteria and algae(including the dinoflagellate algeal parasite amyloodinium,aka The more lethal form of ich or marine velvet) require sustantially less than the larger protozoan cryptocaryon irritans(ich). A standard size sterilizer will have little effect on cryptocaryon but will be effective against amyloodinium and some waterborne bacteria which may contribute to secondary infections.
I use copper and have had success with it. I know some say it harms tangs but haven't been able to verify that. I have also heard that hypo can damage tangs especially their kidneys but have been unable to verify that either. When using copper you must keep the level high enough to kill the parasite without harming the fish. This ussually requires testing. Any substrate or rock left in a tank treated with copper will absorb some of it making it more difficult to maintain a proper level. Further that rock or sustrate will leech copper back later making it unusable in a reef environment.
If you use a quarantine tank you need not worry very much about nitrate and nitrite only amonia. Randy Holmes Farley has written an article on this and you can find it in the archives of the Advanced Reef Aquarist. Basically fish in Marine environments are much less sensitive to nitrite than their freshwater couterparts because of the vast amount of chlorides in sea water.
I think the jury is still out on wether or not alinin(the acitve element in garlic)is helpful in building immunity or otherwise helping to cure ich.
Good Luck

 

[Freed]

Mindis, you must take all the fish out and QT them. Just taking the ones with the visible ich out and QTing them will do nothing. The ich will still be in the main tank and once the fish that you put in QT go back into the main tank, chances are your fish will still get ich and you will be back to square one.

Paulamrein, good job on learning the ways of ich. You of all people should know how deadly it is if left untreated. 12 dead in 5 months is quite a bit to stomach.

One thing though, I have never heard anything about dropping the salinity over one day to make the ich pop. I get the feeling this started from something and turned into something else. Like the way of the grape vine sort of thing. The whole intent of dropping the salinity is that you CAN drop it in one day or you CAN drop it in a few days or more but you will still have the same outcome= only one or two stages of the ich will succomb to the lowered salinity and this will only happen over a period of a couple of weeks as the ich cycles though its life cycle. I believe there are 4 or 5 stages and in only a couple of these stages will the ich be affected by the lowered salinity.

 

[paulamrein]

Thanks for the encouragement. It goes to show that it does get easier and knowledge is the ultimate money saver. Ever since I learned that there can be a parasite-free tank I have been doing nothing but studying up on the subject. I admit that all the information I weeded through wasn't the greatest, but that's what these forums are for. I think I have become a complete saltwater germ-a-phob!! Which I don't understand why more people aren't. This hobby is one of the more expensive hobbies. Next to cars,boats, and planes. I wouldn't throw a lit match into a bag of money so why would people throw an unquarantined animal into their $1000++ systems!! (for those who haven't paid that much for theirs yet, trust me, it's coming.)

 

[paulamrein]

I also want to thank Freed for his efforts and giving me the skinny on QT's. I am the padawan to your ich-fighting
jedi knight