how would you treat an angelfish with ich ?

[joaovieira]

Its all in the title.
how would you treat an angelfish with ich ?

This question was raised cause i am planning to add a pair of bellus angels to my quarentine tank. But before i would like to know wether that should be really a good idea, since if they get ich i would like to plan in advance what should i do. (i have also 1 chevron tang and 1 blenny). Cupper is not a good option for angels, hipo is difficult.... So whats the best option, chloroquine ?

please help me deciding

Thanks

 

[macman7010]

Personally I recommend a three part strategy to treating ich. Nutrition, nutrition, nutrition. Ich is present in nearly every hobbyists' tank unless they keep the salinity around 1.010 (making any inverts out of the question) or consistently run copper in their water, (again making any inverts out of the question. So you may as well assume that ich exists in your tank. Fish with strong immune systems typically will either not contract ich and if they do their bodies natural immunity will beat it off. I use qt as a time to get the fishes' stress levels back to normal and start getting that nutrition up to par.

Here is what I would do.

1. QT for 3-4 weeks.
2. During this time feed garlic infused norii. I prefer the Ocean Nutrition product but any garlic infused norii will work. If they are reluctant to eat the algae on a clip attached to the glass, take a small piece of live rock and rubber band the norii to that. This makes a more natural setting for the fish to graze.
3. Feed 2 foods, (Mysis Shrimp and Rod's Fish Only Formula). Both can be purchased at Marine Depot. Soak these two foods mixed together in Kent Zoe and Brightwell Aquatics Garlic Power. Refrigerate it and make a new mixture when the old is gone.
4. Feed the mysis/rod's mixture in the morning and in the evening feed New Life Spectrum Thera A. Again, this is a garlic infused natural anti-parasitic food. It might take the angels some time to adapt to eating a pellet but they should as you feed it.

Keep this feeding regimen up with great quality water in qt and in a couple weeks introduce the angels to your display continuing the feeding regimen.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Personally I recommend a three part strategy to treating ich. Nutrition, nutrition, nutrition. Ich is present in nearly every hobbyists' tank unless they keep the salinity around 1.010 (making any inverts out of the question) or consistently run copper in their water, (again making any inverts out of the question. So you may as well assume that ich exists in your tank. Fish with strong immune systems typically will either not contract ich and if they do their bodies natural immunity will beat it off. I use qt as a time to get the fishes' stress levels back to normal and start getting that nutrition up to par.

Here is what I would do.

1. QT for 3-4 weeks.
2. During this time feed garlic infused norii. I prefer the Ocean Nutrition product but any garlic infused norii will work. If they are reluctant to eat the algae on a clip attached to the glass, take a small piece of live rock and rubber band the norii to that. This makes a more natural setting for the fish to graze.
3. Feed 2 foods, (Mysis Shrimp and Rod's Fish Only Formula). Both can be purchased at Marine Depot. Soak these two foods mixed together in Kent Zoe and Brightwell Aquatics Garlic Power. Refrigerate it and make a new mixture when the old is gone.
4. Feed the mysis/rod's mixture in the morning and in the evening feed New Life Spectrum Thera A. Again, this is a garlic infused natural anti-parasitic food. It might take the angels some time to adapt to eating a pellet but they should as you feed it.

Keep this feeding regimen up with great quality water in qt and in a couple weeks introduce the angels to your display continuing the feeding regimen.

No, ich is not present " present in nearly every hobbyists' tank"; nor will low levels of copper or a SG of 1.010 eliminate ich. Proper nutrition is key to success with any tank. Living with ich is not necessary and folks who properly QT fish from day one can easily have ich-free tanks. This section of the forum has a constant flow of new threads from hobbyists who thought they had ich under control....then something happened and a huge problem happens.

To the OP: If you are unwilling to hypo and are convinced that copper can't be used on an Angel with ich, IMO, the answer is simple; don't get an Angel. Quinine Sulfate or Chloroquine works sometimes; but I don't consider it reliable. There is no med, other than copper, that can be properly monitored when treating ich. BTW, hypo isn't difficult; it just demands precision.

 

[joaovieira]

No, ich is not present " present in nearly every hobbyists' tank"; nor will low levels of copper or a SG of 1.010 eliminate ich. Proper nutrition is key to success with any tank. Living with ich is not necessary and folks who properly QT fish from day one can easily have ich-free tanks. This section of the forum has a constant flow of new threads from hobbyists who thought they had ich under control....then something happened and a huge problem happens.

To the OP: If you are unwilling to hypo and are convinced that copper can't be used on an Angel with ich, IMO, the answer is simple; don't get an Angel. Quinine Sulfate or Chloroquine works sometimes; but I don't consider it reliable. There is no med, other than copper, that can be properly monitored when treating ich. BTW, hypo isn't difficult; it just demands precision.

My issue was to know olhers opinions based on their expeerience of the safest and effective way for treating angels with ich. Thanks again :thumbsup:

 

[macman7010]

I am sorry Mr. Tuskfish but I am going to have to disagree with you. I will agree that proper nutrition for all tank inhabitants is necessary. The reality is that external parasites exist in home aquariums and I would fathom a guess that if a study were performed more aquarists have some form of internal parasite then those who do not. Proper quarantine methods can help eliminate the chance that a newly introduced fish will A. introduce ich into the aquarium or B. have an outbreak of ich themselves.

Ich as well as a variety of external parasites can enter the aquarium on live rock, the carapace or shell of an invertebrate and of course via introduction by another fish. Eradicating ich totally in the reef environment is nearly impossible. Copper kills inverts, hypo-salinity kills inverts and even running the tank fish free for months does not guarantee that some ich or another external parasite has not survived.

IMHO the worst thing you can do to a new fish is throw them in a QT tank and bombard them with medications: (copper, etc) that they may not need. The best thing you can do is give the fish or fish(es) some time to de-stress and eat the healthiest possible diet.

Fish gain immunity to ich, lose it, then often have a small outbreak from time to time. No worries, if you're water quality is good and you're fish are healthy and fed a proper diet they will overcome it. Cleaner organisms can also help. Just because we don't see ich cysts on our fish simply doesn't mean ich is not present in the system. It likely means our fish our healthy enough that their immunity beats it before it can encrust on their tissue.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I am sorry Mr. Tuskfish but I am going to have to disagree with you. I will agree that proper nutrition for all tank inhabitants is necessary. The reality is that external parasites exist in home aquariums and I would fathom a guess that if a study were performed more aquarists have some form of internal parasite then those who do not. Proper quarantine methods can help eliminate the chance that a newly introduced fish will A. introduce ich into the aquarium or B. have an outbreak of ich themselves.

Ich as well as a variety of external parasites can enter the aquarium on live rock, the carapace or shell of an invertebrate and of course via introduction by another fish. Eradicating ich totally in the reef environment is nearly impossible. Copper kills inverts, hypo-salinity kills inverts and even running the tank fish free for months does not guarantee that some ich or another external parasite has not survived.

IMHO the worst thing you can do to a new fish is throw them in a QT tank and bombard them with medications: (copper, etc) that they may not need. The best thing you can do is give the fish or fish(es) some time to de-stress and eat the healthiest possible diet.

Fish gain immunity to ich, lose it, then often have a small outbreak from time to time. No worries, if you're water quality is good and you're fish are healthy and fed a proper diet they will overcome it. Cleaner organisms can also help. Just because we don't see ich cysts on our fish simply doesn't mean ich is not present in the system. It likely means our fish our healthy enough that their immunity beats it before it can encrust on their tissue.

Unfortunately; our forum deals daily with hobbyists who had ''managed ich'' tanks and now have a real ich problem.
How do cleaner organisms help? The actual parasite is not the white-spot; but buried well under the skin, out of reach of cleaners. Stomach content studies of cleaner fish and shrimp have shown this. With ich, "helping" isn't good enough; IMO & IME. Total kill is required. One ich organism can destroy a tank when the right stressor or condition comes along. It usually does. You're right, there is no guarantee to an ich-less tank; but proper QT procedures (of everything wet) from day one can come quite close. Once ich is in the tank; that's a whole new problem.
I certainly respect your position on this, just disagree with the premise. This discussion will go on among knowledgeable hobbyists for generations, I suspect.

 

[macman7010]

I agree the discussion will continue as ich and many other external parasites have been the subject of debate for a while in the hobby. All I have to go off of is my personal experience in both my own aquariums and public aquariums. I have always been a rigorous supporter of QT measures in 99% of marine aquarium species. Dragonets, jawfish and several other species don't adapt well to a QT environment and sometimes need to be added directly to the display.

I often equate ich to chicken pox in human beings even though ich is a parasite and not a virus. When you get chicken pox the virus remains dormant in your body. If you eat healthy and keep your immune system in good working order likely it will never bother you again. If you become overly stressed, fail to maintain good nutrition or are injured you can get a re-occurring case in the form of shingles.

Ich in fish is much the same. Once it is introduced into the system, (again by a wide variety of means) it is likely to remain there in some form. If the fish are not overly stressed and maintained with good nutrition and water quality chances are you won't have any major problems. Over crowding, proper water flow/oxygenation, temperature, water quality and tank mates all factor into this.

Fish, physiologically and biologically are similar to coral reefs as an ecosystem. They are resilient. They can often take stress from one or two sources though when they are bombarded with stress from multiple sources over a continuing period of time their health begins to degrade. Remember, no matter how you spin it treating a fish with any chemical or medication adds stress to their bodies as well.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I agree the discussion will continue as ich and many other external parasites have been the subject of debate for a while in the hobby. All I have to go off of is my personal experience in both my own aquariums and public aquariums. I have always been a rigorous supporter of QT measures in 99% of marine aquarium species. Dragonets, jawfish and several other species don't adapt well to a QT environment and sometimes need to be added directly to the display.

I often equate ich to chicken pox in human beings even though ich is a parasite and not a virus. When you get chicken pox the virus remains dormant in your body. If you eat healthy and keep your immune system in good working order likely it will never bother you again. If you become overly stressed, fail to maintain good nutrition or are injured you can get a re-occurring case in the form of shingles.

Ich in fish is much the same. Once it is introduced into the system, (again by a wide variety of means) it is likely to remain there in some form. If the fish are not overly stressed and maintained with good nutrition and water quality chances are you won't have any major problems. Over crowding, proper water flow/oxygenation, temperature, water quality and tank mates all factor into this.

Fish, physiologically and biologically are similar to coral reefs as an ecosystem. They are resilient. They can often take stress from one or two sources though when they are bombarded with stress from multiple sources over a continuing period of time their health begins to degrade. Remember, no matter how you spin it treating a fish with any chemical or medication adds stress to their bodies as well.

"Chance are..." is the main reason I don't advocate 'managing ich". We take a lot of chances in our hobby; managing ich doesn't have to be one of them. Stressors that can cause ich problems are often out of our control. How many ''managed'' ich tanks were really hurt by the massive power outages last winter, for example. I am just not in the "no chemical' camp. Almost every fish for sale in the U.S. has been treated with copper along the way. DD, perhaps the best supplier of fish on the planet, IMO, runs copper 24/7/365. I have used copper and Prazi +pro as a prophylactic for many years, on more fish than I can count (in the hundreds). I certainly have seen no ill effects or problems related to stress (perhaps the most abused word in the hobby). This is not spin; its about 1000 gals of long-lived, parasite-free, healthy fish.

Back to the OP: The question asked about adding a pair of Angels to an established tank and how to treat if ich developed. Would you suggest adding a pair of Bellus Angels, w/o QT, to any established tank---or a pair of anything? Is the answer, "Sure, go ahead. You can always manage it with good nutrition and husbandry"? I doubt this is what you are advising and we're going in a different direction.

 

[sandwi54]

I agree the discussion will continue as ich and many other external parasites have been the subject of debate for a while in the hobby. All I have to go off of is my personal experience in both my own aquariums and public aquariums. I have always been a rigorous supporter of QT measures in 99% of marine aquarium species. Dragonets, jawfish and several other species don't adapt well to a QT environment and sometimes need to be added directly to the display.

I often equate ich to chicken pox in human beings even though ich is a parasite and not a virus. When you get chicken pox the virus remains dormant in your body. If you eat healthy and keep your immune system in good working order likely it will never bother you again. If you become overly stressed, fail to maintain good nutrition or are injured you can get a re-occurring case in the form of shingles.

Ich in fish is much the same. Once it is introduced into the system, (again by a wide variety of means) it is likely to remain there in some form. If the fish are not overly stressed and maintained with good nutrition and water quality chances are you won't have any major problems. Over crowding, proper water flow/oxygenation, temperature, water quality and tank mates all factor into this.

Fish, physiologically and biologically are similar to coral reefs as an ecosystem. They are resilient. They can often take stress from one or two sources though when they are bombarded with stress from multiple sources over a continuing period of time their health begins to degrade. Remember, no matter how you spin it treating a fish with any chemical or medication adds stress to their bodies as well.

Extensive research and study have already been done by scientists. Please read the ich stickies in this forum to understand the scientific side of this parasite as well as its life cycle, instead of going with pure personal experience. Your experience may not apply to others. It IS possible to eliminate ich. All that's needed is a rigorous protocol to "beat" its life cycle. Ich needs food (in this case, fish) and it has already been proven that it dies within 18-24 hours if it cannot attach to a fish host. What does this tell us? Simply leaving a tank fallow for 10 weeks (longest observed complete ich cycle is 72 days in 32F of water) will eliminate all of the ich. So yes it IS possible to rid a tank of ich.

When you buy a fish and it comes in with ich, only two methods are proven to kill the new born theronts in the water: copper and hyposalinity (1.008-1.009, or 11-12ppt). Once you set up a new tank with live rocks, invertebrates, etc., leave it fallow for 10 weeks and the DT will be ich free. Then, buy new fish, QT them, treat them with either copper or hyposalinity for 4 weeks. Observe for another couple of weeks to make sure the fish is disease-free. Put the fish in the DT and it will still be ich free. It's a lot of work I know, but that's the only possible way to guarantee an ich-free tank. Many experienced aquarists practice this regimen (myself included) and have ich-free tanks.

"Managing ich" will work for a while, maybe even a few years, but as soon as a major stress happens (broken heater, power outage, etc.), the fish will be stressed enough that ich will take over the weakened immune system and kill fish. I have seen this first-hand in my own tank, and it happened in merely a week.

I will also make one note. Ich is truly a parasite that takes advantage of the confined environment. In the wild, even if fish contracts ich, it can swim away before the new theronts are formed and find opportunity to attach to it. In an aquarium, fish have no where to hide, so most of the theronts can find a fish host easily. This situation is exacerbated especially in small aquariums with heavy stockings. That's what makes this supposedly relatively harmless parasite so rampant and deadly in this hobby. When a tank is full of fish, theronts can find hosts quite easily, and can reproduce fast and take over the tank. This is the reason why it is not a good idea to "manage ich," simply because that's what happens when a major stress happens and fish's immune system is weakened.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Extensive research and study have already been done by scientists. Please read the ich stickies in this forum to understand the scientific side of this parasite as well as its life cycle, instead of going with pure personal experience. Your experience may not apply to others. It IS possible to eliminate ich. All that's needed is a rigorous protocol to "beat" its life cycle. Ich needs food (in this case, fish) and it has already been proven that it dies within 18-24 hours if it cannot attach to a fish host. What does this tell us? Simply leaving a tank fallow for 10 weeks (longest observed complete ich cycle is 72 days in 32F of water) will eliminate all of the ich. So yes it IS possible to rid a tank of ich.

When you buy a fish and it comes in with ich, only two methods are proven to kill the new born theronts in the water: copper and hyposalinity (1.008-1.009, or 11-12ppt). Once you set up a new tank with live rocks, invertebrates, etc., leave it fallow for 10 weeks and the DT will be ich free. Then, buy new fish, QT them, treat them with either copper or hyposalinity for 4 weeks. Observe for another couple of weeks to make sure the fish is disease-free. Put the fish in the DT and it will still be ich free. It's a lot of work I know, but that's the only possible way to guarantee an ich-free tank. Many experienced aquarists practice this regimen (myself included) and have ich-free tanks.

"Managing ich" will work for a while, maybe even a few years, but as soon as a major stress happens (broken heater, power outage, etc.), the fish will be stressed enough that ich will take over the weakened immune system and kill fish. I have seen this first-hand in my own tank, and it happened in merely a week.

I will also make one note. Ich is truly a parasite that takes advantage of the confined environment. In the wild, even if fish contracts ich, it can swim away before the new theronts are formed and find opportunity to attach to it. In an aquarium, fish have no where to hide, so most of the theronts can find a fish host easily. This situation is exacerbated especially in small aquariums with heavy stockings. That's what makes this supposedly relatively harmless parasite so rampant and deadly in this hobby. When a tank is full of fish, theronts can find hosts quite easily, and can reproduce fast and take over the tank. This is the reason why it is not a good idea to "manage ich," simply because that's what happens when a major stress happens and fish's immune system is weakened.

:thumbsup: Great explanation. (That's what I was going to say, but I can only type with two fingers!)

 

[sandwi54]

:thumbsup: Great explanation. (That's what I was going to say, but I can only type with two fingers!)

What happened to the other fingers??? :rollface:

 

[MrTuskfish]

What happened to the other fingers??? :rollface:

Just never used them on a keyboard....do use a thumb on the space-bar, though!

 

[sandwi54]

Just never used them on a keyboard....do use a thumb on the space-bar, though!

Is it time for a keyboarding lesson then?

 

[macman7010]

I would still argue the point of an ich free tank sandwi. I have been in the marine aquarium hobby for almost 20 years and cannot remember once having a tank that I could say confidently was ich free. I have read many, many studies on ich and its effect on aquarium fish vs. wild fish. QT does a wonderful job of helping keep our fish free of parasites such as ich, gill flukes, etc -etc. Though, we would be stepping out on a limb to confidently say that our aquarium is without a doubt - ich free. The only way I would assume such a claim could be made is using the methods you have highlighted above and never adding any live rock, inverts, or basically anything that may have been in the ocean or a possibly infected aquarium into the tank after that point. You can't QT an invert with copper or hypo though ich can travel into the tank on a carapace or shell. You could always QT them longer than ich's life cycle but I doubt the vast majority of hobbyists do that, especially with clean-up crews.

That goes for live rock as well. I fathom a guess that most hobbyists place it right into the aquarium upon acquisition. I agree an ich free aquarium can be achieved though I also think through proper protocol with nutrition, water quality and stocking fish can keep themselves naturally parasite free.

As for the risk of power outage. I have said for a long time any marine aquarist who doesn't have a generator of adequate strength to back up his entire aquarium is playing with fire.

 

[macman7010]

To get back on track with joaovieira's question. I would never recommend adding these fish to a display tank without QT as I mentioned above. When reviewing your profile joavieira I noticed you placed yourself in the beginner category. That said, I wouldn't recommend this species to you at all. Genicanthus bellus is a species that under the right conditions is moderate to keep. They are far from impossible, even far from hard but they need the care of a somewhat seasoned aquarist.

They are a peaceful angelfish species and more reef compatible than many. They grow to about 7" in length and I would recommend a 100-150 gallon tank for this species. If I were you I would take a shot at a Flame Angelfish or some easily kept centrofyge species first. If you take the Flame route and plan on a QT using copper I would recommend reading this study to help you understand the effects of copper and how to safely utilize it.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/10/breeder

 

[Ostri]

Unfortunately; our forum deals daily with hobbyists who had ''managed ich'' tanks and now have a real ich problem.
How do cleaner organisms help? The actual parasite is not the white-spot; but buried well under the skin, out of reach of cleaners. Stomach content studies of cleaner fish and shrimp have shown this. With ich, "helping" isn't good enough; IMO & IME. Total kill is required. One ich organism can destroy a tank when the right stressor or condition comes along. It usually does. You're right, there is no guarantee to an ich-less tank; but proper QT procedures (of everything wet) from day one can come quite close. Once ich is in the tank; that's a whole new problem.
I certainly respect your position on this, just disagree with the premise. This discussion will go on among knowledgeable hobbyists for generations, I suspect.

I had to register just to give you a reply. Seriously, I've seen so many bullies on this forum using very rude words against many hobbyists as long as their opinions are not the same with you. I'm a hematologist / med onc and I got my B.S. in molecular bio. I simply just cannot agree with you guys. You are asking everyone to live by your standard, that is to treat the whole tank with copper or hyposalinity. This, in many situations, is just not possible. Many people have a ton of corals and fish in their aquarium so they cannot do a fallow tank. Many people have ich in their aquariums but it rarely shows any symptoms and after a while it "disappear". From a medical perspective this is very approachable. In a controlled situation fish can improve their adaptive immune system to produce enough antibodies that correctly recognize antigens. You have vaccine shots because we cannot get rid of those pathogens so we train your immune system to be able to recognize and fight the antigens off. All I want to say is that, there are many ways to reach a goal, and for many people they do not need to eradicate ich. In their situation, UV, Ozone, and a cleaner shrimp may just help to alleviate the situation, to allow the fish to slowly improve its immune system. And in their situation, getting all of those fish out and treat them with copper, hyposalinity, and coping with ammonia & nitrite plus dealing with work, kids is just not possible. Other people don't need to live by your standards. And as for your statement that ich must be eradicated, I did research with 5 species of tangs including achilles & PBT and I can tell you that one spot of ich will no ruin a tank. We placed tangs in a controlled ich-present tank and helped the fish to establish immunity and when all fish cleared out their ich dots we moved them to a then infected tank with all the experimental subjects having no visible ich infection. If one spot of ich will ruin the tank, then there is no point for you to take any MMR shot. You really need to stop bullying others since I've seen you post such comments for a while.

 

[gone fishin]

You do realize your chastising a 3 year old post.

And welcome to RC.

 

[ThRoewer]

Its all in the title.
how would you treat an angelfish with ich ?

This question was raised cause i am planning to add a pair of bellus angels to my quarentine tank. But before i would like to know wether that should be really a good idea, since if they get ich i would like to plan in advance what should i do. (i have also 1 chevron tang and 1 blenny). Cupper is not a good option for angels, hipo is difficult.... So whats the best option, chloroquine ?

please help me deciding

Thanks

As a prophylactic treatment of new fish in a QT I would use CP since it is effective against multiple parasites, some of which are unaffected by TTM, copper, or hyposalinity which would be the other options against ich.

In general I would not treat unless the fish show symptoms of an infection, especially not angels since they can be quite sensitive and fragile during the first weeks.

If you want to be sure they are clean you can always put them through TTM after they are stable and eating well.

 

[ThRoewer]

You do realize your chastising a 3 year old post..

oops - didn't see the date either :debi:

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Old thread. Post deleted.