Hybrid Queen angelfish?

[Ian]

Jeremy, don't you have Kangaroos to feed?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I don't believe its a variant/morph at all. Brazilian queens are just better colored IMO. Reason being behind this is only queens are there,no blues to hybridize with.

Huh? You're not claiming it?! What does this mean, then?

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Don't claim it, its my opinion, not fact. The crown is the biggest marking that distinguishes the queen from the blue. A blue can't just grow it because it wants to. Also with colors again,only Aussie tusks have red tails, only Indos don't, its clearly a region thing. You don't see them both in the same region where there's some with clear tails and some with red. Same as flames. But if you go to the Caribbean where the two regions of fish intertwine, you get an assorted mix! I wonder why? My vote gets hybridization, at least in the ancestry bloodline or from one this species was one, they are still separating? Aries that its taking this long in this area but not others. Also, there has been known hybrids, townsends, so why rule it out? I don't think its anything you've said simply due to the fact that in this region you have every different color, crowned or not queen/blue/Townsend/hybrid whatever You want to call them. So it can't be an environmental issue since They live in identical environments, eat the same foods. So What could it be? We don't know, you know my "guess" but its not been proven. Your region guess can be throw out, its a pile of manure

Man, you are SO missing the point. First off, your assessment of the differences between tusks is wrong. Aussie are known to be more vividly colored overall. Both have red coloration top their tails. And the flames are different colors from different regions. Answer this- how do these variations occur? Your answer to that is my point. I never said a blue can willfully grow a crown. But can they get one from a genetic mutation? You better believe it! The same was scopas tangs can be all yellow, or yellow tangs can be piebald, or any animal can be albino!

ONCE AGAIN, I am NOT saying hybrids dont exist!!!!! They do! I am saying you stating that Carribbean Queens have drabber colors, as a whole BECAUSE tehy hybridize with blues!

 

[jmaneyapanda]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkXV5O5GfJ8

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Jeremy, don't you have Kangaroos to feed?

they can wait.

 

[AngelAddict]

That's my opinion clearly, I didn't say fact, don't believe what anyone else says, because I know it all. I know next to nothing of What I wish/dream to know, but I do know a little bit. Most is What you gather from the internet, which sadly you can't even end take with a grain of salt. There are however some knowledgeable people out there, You being one of them, that people can learn from. This is where I've gotten this information,makes the most sense to me and I believe could be true, since there's no hard data to back any of it up.

So keeping this debate on track,how can you say that it could be environmental, dietary, or pathogenic if every morph of queen or blue are in the exact same region? They're all exposed to the sane elements, therefore I believe that is ruled out. This is What I've been trying to discuss. If you say you haven't a clue, yet you immediately knock down hybridization, why is That? This is What I thought we were debating the last page of replies. I understand its all speculation, mere suggestions and opinions, that's What this site is about, the exchange of knowledge.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

That's my opinion clearly, I didn't say fact, don't believe what anyone else says, because I know it all. I know next to nothing of What I wish/dream to know, but I do know a little bit. Most is What you gather from the internet, which sadly you can't even end take with a grain of salt. There are however some knowledgeable people out there, You being one of them, that people can learn from. This is where I've gotten this information,makes the most sense to me and I believe could be true, since there's no hard data to back any of it up.

So keeping this debate on track,how can you say that it could be environmental, dietary, or pathogenic if every morph of queen or blue are in the exact same region? They're all exposed to the sane elements, therefore I believe that is ruled out. This is What I've been trying to discuss. If you say you haven't a clue, yet you immediately knock down hybridization, why is That? This is What I thought we were debating the last page of replies. I understand its all speculation, mere suggestions and opinions, that's What this site is about, the exchange of knowledge.

They Are NOT the same envrionment. They are regional. You yourself posted a quote saying that Floridian queens are paler because of more blues. Can it be cooler water? More (or less algae/sponge/whatever? A localized virus or fungus? Could it be a cold spell at metamorphasis? Could it be genetics? Yes. Why am I so quick to knock down hybridization? because it goes against the natural progression, which spent 50 million years getting there. Why spend said 50 million years evolving into a blue and a queen, if they are just going to hybridize back together (in an evolutionary sense)? Understand, I majored in evolutionary biology in school, so this is a bit of a rigid point for me.

 

[AngelAddict]

I know you have a degree in this (I have an AA degree in biology/chemistry, which means nothing) but all the studying won't give you the answers of the world. Hybridization goes against natural progression, then why does it happen all over the world? And they ARE from the same environment! Go to the keys, you will see queens which look like brazilian ones, townsends, blues and everything else inbetween, all picking from the same reef. If that isn't in the same environment, then I don't know what is. I personally know several divers in the keys who sell "brazilian" queens, yet they are from the keys. Apparently the term brazilian is just a sales bluff, although queens from brazil and nicely colored, there are identical ones in the keys/caribbean. So now, explain the differences in all the colors/morphs whatever you want to call it when they are all in the same environment? I don't think there is an explanation until some research is actually done with hard evidence/date. But I wouldn't rule out hybridization, I am sure these angels have been doing it long long long before we took our first breath, now every angel that breeds with it after will have similar results, resulting in a mix of different morphs. Maybe the fish will go back to one type in the future in that region? That is something maybe you could answer, not me, I just know what I see now.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

This is ridiculous. I dont even want to discuss it anymore. Hybridization happens everywhere- IN MODERATION. NEVER enough to alter the phenotype of the majority of the species. But, yeah, I get it- you dont believe it. Fine, I am obviously not gonna change your mind. Like Ive said ALL ALONG in this thread, I do not doubt hybridization occurs, I just object to you claiming (in your opinion) that the Caribbean queens are bluer as a whole from excessive hybridization.
You still havent answered my question. What causes said color changes and regional variation in fish that do not hybridize?

 

[AngelAddict]

First off,no need to get all upset. Its not the end of the world if I don't believe you, life goes on.

I just object to you claiming (in your opinion) that the Caribbean queens are bluer as a whole from excessive hybridization.

I didn't say that, I said I believe the hybridizations caused the different morphs in that area. Not all are like that. There are still blues without crowns and queens thar look like Brazilians.

As far as other fish and their differences, I'm sorry but this is the first I read of this question. These I believe are not due to hybridization, since their boundaries don't overlap like the blue/queen. Those fish are more then likely due to your reasoning, environmental, dietary, etc. I would agree with you there. However, we are talking about the queen and blue Angelfish, their situation is different due to the overlapping of each fish's habitat.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

First off,no need to get all ****ed. Its not the end of the world if I don't believe you, life goes on.





I didn't say that, I said I believe the hybridizations caused the different morphs in that area. Not all are like that. There are still blues without crowns and queens thar look like Brazilians.

As far as other fish and their differences, I'm sorry but this is the first I read of this question. These I believe are not due to hybridization, since their boundaries don't overlap like the blue/queen. Those fish are more then likely due to your reasoning, environmental, dietary, etc. I would agree with you there. However, we are talking about the queen and blue Angelfish, their situation is different due to the overlapping of each fish's habitat.

Im not POed. Im just tired of saying the same thing over and over and over. And this is the claim I have been disputing all along:

Brazilian queens are just better colored IMO. Reason being behind this is only queens are there,no blues to hybridize with.

If you didnt mean that Non Brazilians queens arent as colorful because they hybridize with blues, then we have nothing to discuss. But, I dont know how you can say you didnt claim that from the statement you made above.

 

[AngelAddict]

Sorry, I changed it to upset, I'm not trying to be an A-hole here. I feel your frustration, I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again. Brazilian queens all pretty much look the same,whether you say its region or I say lack of hybridization. I've seen quite a few queens that are coming into the hobby that are morphed from the Brazilian look, they appear to have blue angel traits as well, hence my hybrid suggestion. However,there are queens in these areas as well that look identical as Brazilians (even sold as Brazilians yet they're from the Caribbean) which makes me believe that these other angels have some hybridization while the Brazilian looking ones do not. How else would there be such a drastic change in these fish When they all have identical habitats while some look just like the Brazilians where there are no blues to hybrid with? That is the answer I am looking for. I don't know if that answers your question, but that's my final statement on the subject.

 

[reef_shadow]

Here's a better pic of the queen we've been discussing. It would be interesting for folks to post other variations for comparison. Thanks