ThRoewer
New member
Be careful and make sure it's really ich. Capalidae (skin flukes) can look exactly like ich, but may move much faster.
I know you should always QT, however..
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Be careful and make sure it's really ich. Capalidae (skin flukes) can look exactly like ich, but may move much faster.
I'm pretty positive it's Ich. It's been showing up for a few weeks off and on. If it get too bad I'll remove everything and treat but I'm hoping to avoid that since they are doing so well otherwise.
laga77
New member
Ich should never be lethal. At worst it should be a nuisance. Healthy fish with a good immune system can fight it off. If ich kills your fish, you are doing something wrong. Most common mistake is poor diet, followed by mixing the wrong fish/too many, or not enough cover for the fish to feel safe, then poor WC.
CrayolaViolence
New member
Theoretically it is counter productive for any parasite that relies on a host to complete its life cycle to kill its host. This is counterproductive. However when the environment allows for overpopulation of the parasite which in turn overburdens the host, death can occur. Even something as benign as tape worm or round worm, can eventually overwhelm a host taxing its resources and thus making it susceptible to secondary infections.
Personally, after reading several scientific papers/journals/write ups about parasitic diseases such as marine velvet and ich (mostly in the commercial fish industry some about it in the wild), I have come to one conclusion. All wild caught fish have been exposed to it and exposure leads to contamination. However, do not think for one moment that tank raised fish are immune to it, because they can still contract it in fish keeping facilities (especially if they use fresh sea water) and worse, most have 0 immunity to it because they are never exposed to it.
Ich and Velvet (as well as other parasitic diseases) are usually NOT fatal in the wild due to the massive water exchange that keeps the parasitic numbers down in any given area, the predators to the parasite (and yes there are ich and velvet predators because anything that consumes plankton will consume them) and the fact that fish who are less than health do not live long enough for the parasite to reach obscene numbers in their bodies and shed it at those higher numbers. Predation keeps the Typhoid Marys at bay.
And as someone else already mentioned (many someones in fact) water quality is a HUGE factor because it impacts the immune system of the fish. And almost all fish exposed to ich or velvet and live, will in fact develop an immune system response to it.
Our closed systems with careful environmental controls gives parasites a natural leg up and puts all fish, any fish, at a severe disadvantage when trying to fight off disease.
Of course this is mostly my opinion, based on anecdotal evidence and my interpretation of articles written on the subject.
Not sure that's necessarily the case. There appear to be many different strains of ich with varying levels of potency. I have ich in my tank, and though it's not a major problem, my Achilles does occasionally show spots - and it's been 3 1/2 years. I QT all fish so reasonably sure the ich strain has not been augmented in that time.
CrayolaViolence
New member
In papers that I have read, they support your deduction. There are many strains of ich and velvet all of which can survive in different salinities, temperatures, and general conditions. Subspecies within the known species. It's why hyposalinity doesn't work in some cases.
WLachnit
Active member
ThRoewer
New member
The issue is not that fish have come in contact with ich, but rather just the opposite.
If the fish's immune system never encountered the parasite it will have little to no response to it. On the other hand, a fish that survived an infection will gain a certain level of protection. Of course acquiring immunity will be less likely if the fish is stressed out all the time (usually the case with most tangs in home aquaria).
IMO the acquiring of a certain degree of immunity is the reason why ich will sooner or later die out in a confined system. This will of course not work if you have fish in your tank that are have a compromised immune system due to stress, malnutrition, poor water quality,... which provide the parasite with a refuge.
And then there are some fish that seem to be naturally immune against ich. I know that some studies - Burgess in particular - claim to have proven the opposite, but they only tested very few species and then extrapolated it onto the whole family. These tests were by no means comprehensive enough to support the claims made.
I had plenty of Banggai cardinals in seriously ich infected QTs, but not a single one ever showed the slightest sign of infection. The same goes for Stonogobiops nematodes and yasha - not even a single spot while everyone else in the quarantine tank was seriously sick with ich.
Yet other cardinals or gobies can most definitely get infected and sick. So you can only make claims for the species you actually tested, but not deduct from findings with one or even a few members of a family on all members of the family (also to consider is the sometimes shaky classification of certain fish.)
In the end, acquired or natural immunity is more common than generally acknowledged and often accounts for miraculous recoveries and the apparent "success" of alternative and reef safe medications.
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If the fish's immune system never encountered the parasite it will have little to no response to it. On the other hand, a fish that survived an infection will gain a certain level of protection. Of course acquiring immunity will be less likely if the fish is stressed out all the time (usually the case with most tangs in home aquaria).
IMO the acquiring of a certain degree of immunity is the reason why ich will sooner or later die out in a confined system. This will of course not work if you have fish in your tank that are have a compromised immune system due to stress, malnutrition, poor water quality,... which provide the parasite with a refuge.
And then there are some fish that seem to be naturally immune against ich. I know that some studies - Burgess in particular - claim to have proven the opposite, but they only tested very few species and then extrapolated it onto the whole family. These tests were by no means comprehensive enough to support the claims made.
I had plenty of Banggai cardinals in seriously ich infected QTs, but not a single one ever showed the slightest sign of infection. The same goes for Stonogobiops nematodes and yasha - not even a single spot while everyone else in the quarantine tank was seriously sick with ich.
Yet other cardinals or gobies can most definitely get infected and sick. So you can only make claims for the species you actually tested, but not deduct from findings with one or even a few members of a family on all members of the family (also to consider is the sometimes shaky classification of certain fish.)
In the end, acquired or natural immunity is more common than generally acknowledged and often accounts for miraculous recoveries and the apparent "success" of alternative and reef safe medications.
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ThRoewer
New member
For those interested, I collected links to scholarly articles on acquired immunity against protozoan and other parasites in this thread: Protective immunity against Cryptocaryon irritans.
Fish can not only acquire immunity against Cryptocaryon, but also against other protozoan like Amyloodinium and even larger parasites like skin flukes.
Now, as great as that may sound, it actually presents a serious danger that a parasite slips through quarantine undiscovered if a fish has an infection and is carrier of an occult infection.
Fish can not only acquire immunity against Cryptocaryon, but also against other protozoan like Amyloodinium and even larger parasites like skin flukes.
Now, as great as that may sound, it actually presents a serious danger that a parasite slips through quarantine undiscovered if a fish has an infection and is carrier of an occult infection.
ThRoewer
New member
Lymphocystis is a virus infection due to a compromised immune system, often due to copper treatment. It is generally not very infective and once a fish got over it he is usually immune. There are also strong indicators that the different Lymphocystis strains are highly specific to certain fish families, so spreading of the infection is usually no a big issue.
It's a very good point - and I waffle back and forth over whether to prophylactically treat. Ultimately I do for fish prone to parasites and not for fish not prone to parasites. I do tend to find that the stress of shipping will reveal latent infections.
bobbravo2
Reef Addict
FishN00b83
New member
Ich in a confined space can overwhelm fish, immunity or not. Just because you don't see it on them, doesn't mean it's not in the gills, the same goes for flukes.
Treating for Ich and flukes is so easy, it's stupid NOT to treat for them. TTM with prazi for 12 days gets rid of both. Why wouldn't you do that? If you put them in a QT tank for another two weeks and nothing shows up, they're golden. Brook and Velvet will show signs within 20 days, if you do TTM and QT for two weeks that's 26 days. If something comes up, treat it and watch. With everything we know these days you're being irresponsible not treating these animals.
You give your cats and dogs flea/heart worm meds to PREVENT parasites, why not treat your fish the same way?
Treating for Ich and flukes is so easy, it's stupid NOT to treat for them. TTM with prazi for 12 days gets rid of both. Why wouldn't you do that? If you put them in a QT tank for another two weeks and nothing shows up, they're golden. Brook and Velvet will show signs within 20 days, if you do TTM and QT for two weeks that's 26 days. If something comes up, treat it and watch. With everything we know these days you're being irresponsible not treating these animals.
You give your cats and dogs flea/heart worm meds to PREVENT parasites, why not treat your fish the same way?
ThRoewer
New member
Internet rumors. Non of that is true.
A fish that has acquired full immunity against Cryptocaryon will not be bothered by it, confined system or not. Actually, any parasite trying to feast on that fish will be killed.
A partially immune fish may get a few spots, but not be killed.
Cryptocaryon has no preferential to where to infect. Statistically it is equally likely to be found at any surface of the fish. The gill thing is something that applies to Amyloodinium or Brooklynella, but not to Cryptocaryon.
IME, partially immune fish mostly show spots on the fins because the immune system is least capable of fighting the infection there due to the limited blood flow there. It's the same reason why Lymphocystis usually shows up on the fins first.
I suggest to read the Burgess study to gather some fact founded knowledge about acquired immunity against Cryptocaryon:
CRYPTOCARYON IRRITANS BROWN, 1951 (CILIOPHORA):
TRANSMISSION AND IMMUNE RESPONSE
IN THE MULLET CHELON LABROSUS (RISSO, 1826)
by
PETER JOHN BURGESS
B.Sc. (Hons.), M.Sc., M.Phil.
Direct link to PDF: https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/bitstr...PETER JOHN BURGESS.PDF?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
TRANSMISSION AND IMMUNE RESPONSE
IN THE MULLET CHELON LABROSUS (RISSO, 1826)
by
PETER JOHN BURGESS
B.Sc. (Hons.), M.Sc., M.Phil.
Direct link to PDF: https://pearl.plymouth.ac.uk/bitstr...PETER JOHN BURGESS.PDF?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
More science based info on immunity can found at the links provided in this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2544292
FishN00b83
New member
Are you seriously siting work that old? Are you going to tell me the earth is flat too? Or maybe dinosaurs didn't exist? If you google something enough you'll always find what you're looking for, and that's the problem. A lot of just wrong outdated information is out there.
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FishN00b83
New member
They will develop temporary immunity for a few months but still be the carrier of the parasite. If you think of ich more like fleas you'll get a better understanding of what is happening. Some animals are allergic and scratch from bites, some aren't bothered at all but still carry them. Are the ones not scratching immune? No they just don't show signs. Can they carry it and transfer them to other people? Absolutely. Parasites are not sicknesses you develop antibodies to. Ich is not a disease and people need to stop thinking about it this way.
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