I think i figured it out.....
- Thread starter Nu2SW
- Start date
CaliforniaDreamer
Premium Member
I agree with the others that 7.8 by itself won't kill zoa's. However the reason that your ph is at 7.8 might be another matter. I would check the alk and make sure it is above 7 dKH. I normally keep mine around 10. Also make sure you are using a buffer for reef tanks NOT saltwater fish tanks. At least verify that the buffer you are using is not high in borates.
Justin74
New member
This inspired me to relook over the ingrediants in Kent's superbuffer dkh, and now Im thinking oh fudge..:hmm2: Ive periodically dosed with this over the course of a couple years in my tank. Could you recap a little on the negatives of borate, I know technically its a very big and lengthy subject.
-Justin
CaliforniaDreamer
Premium Member
Here is a excerpt from Randy's article. The full article can be found here, Randy's Article.
Elevated Boron: Toxicity
At boron levels above that present in natural seawater, as is supplied in some artificial salt mixes and as may develop from overuse of boron supplements, boron begins to exert undesirable toxicity on a number of organisms. The studies on marine organisms are not wide ranging, so one must be careful in how to interpret levels above natural seawater since tests have not been run on most of the organisms that we keep.
In general, marine organisms (invertebrates and fish) are seemingly more prone to experience toxicity from boron than are freshwater species. The marine isopod Limnoria lignorum has a 24-hour LC50 (that is, the concentration at which 50% die in 24 hours) of only 2.6 mM (28 ppm boron).16 That is only about 6 times the concentration in natural seawater (and is BELOW the concentration in Seachem salt mix!). Similarly, the dab, Limanda limanda (a North Sea Fish), has a 96-hour LC50 of 6.8 mM (74 ppm boron).16
A lot of additional biological effects can be found on the web sites of the Canadian Environmental Protection Division Ministry of Water, Lands and Air Protection17 and the United Nations International Program on Chemical Safety. 18
Elevated Boron: Confounding Interpretation of Alkalinity Tests
One additional complication that comes from substantially elevated borate is the confounding of the interpretation of alkalinity tests. 19 When reef aquarists are concerned about alkalinity, they are almost invariably concerned with the alkalinity that comes from bicarbonate and carbonate, and it is largely used as a surrogate measure of bicarbonate, which is necessary for calcification.20 Nearly all hobby test kits measure alkalinity with a single titration that provides total alkalinity,19 which is the sum of bicarbonate, carbonate, and borate alkalinity. When the levels of boron are similar to natural levels, then the contribution of borate to that test is minimal, and is generally safely ignored in guidelines for alkalinity (for example, keeping a reef tank at 2.5-4 meq/L total alkalinity).
However, if the boron level is substantially above natural levels, as it is in the Seachem salt mix with 12x normal levels, borate can actually begin to dominate such tests, 19 and makes knowing the real bicarbonate and carbonate alkalinity much more difficult. Seachem sells a special borate alkalinity test kit to try to disentangle these effects, but that is only really necessary with tank water that contains greatly elevated boron levels.
Elevated Boron: Toxicity
At boron levels above that present in natural seawater, as is supplied in some artificial salt mixes and as may develop from overuse of boron supplements, boron begins to exert undesirable toxicity on a number of organisms. The studies on marine organisms are not wide ranging, so one must be careful in how to interpret levels above natural seawater since tests have not been run on most of the organisms that we keep.
In general, marine organisms (invertebrates and fish) are seemingly more prone to experience toxicity from boron than are freshwater species. The marine isopod Limnoria lignorum has a 24-hour LC50 (that is, the concentration at which 50% die in 24 hours) of only 2.6 mM (28 ppm boron).16 That is only about 6 times the concentration in natural seawater (and is BELOW the concentration in Seachem salt mix!). Similarly, the dab, Limanda limanda (a North Sea Fish), has a 96-hour LC50 of 6.8 mM (74 ppm boron).16
A lot of additional biological effects can be found on the web sites of the Canadian Environmental Protection Division Ministry of Water, Lands and Air Protection17 and the United Nations International Program on Chemical Safety. 18
Elevated Boron: Confounding Interpretation of Alkalinity Tests
One additional complication that comes from substantially elevated borate is the confounding of the interpretation of alkalinity tests. 19 When reef aquarists are concerned about alkalinity, they are almost invariably concerned with the alkalinity that comes from bicarbonate and carbonate, and it is largely used as a surrogate measure of bicarbonate, which is necessary for calcification.20 Nearly all hobby test kits measure alkalinity with a single titration that provides total alkalinity,19 which is the sum of bicarbonate, carbonate, and borate alkalinity. When the levels of boron are similar to natural levels, then the contribution of borate to that test is minimal, and is generally safely ignored in guidelines for alkalinity (for example, keeping a reef tank at 2.5-4 meq/L total alkalinity).
However, if the boron level is substantially above natural levels, as it is in the Seachem salt mix with 12x normal levels, borate can actually begin to dominate such tests, 19 and makes knowing the real bicarbonate and carbonate alkalinity much more difficult. Seachem sells a special borate alkalinity test kit to try to disentangle these effects, but that is only really necessary with tank water that contains greatly elevated boron levels.
Justin74
New member
Thanks John, so basically dont use that buffer; AND ESPECIALLY NOT with Seachem reefsalt. At least the older batches from what Im told 
Dang, now Im gonna need to do some more research, ignorance is sooo bliss :/
This may be why some salts claim to have the buffing capacity 4X that of NSW, and now its sounding that what may appear to be a higher capacity is only that, an appearance.
-Justin
Dang, now Im gonna need to do some more research, ignorance is sooo bliss :/
This may be why some salts claim to have the buffing capacity 4X that of NSW, and now its sounding that what may appear to be a higher capacity is only that, an appearance.
-Justin
Brian Prestwood
Premium Member
Frustrating
I wonder why the salt manufacturers do things this this?
Has compitition forced them to sell formulations they know are problematic?
Has compitition forced them to buy ingrediants from sources they know have quality control problems?
Do they just not bother to check?
Like everyone, I was surprised to see how badly IO performed in the MARSH test. It seems like $10/50 gal bag can't buy reef aquarium grade salt.
Oh, and I'm loving my calcium reactor.
I wonder why the salt manufacturers do things this this?
Has compitition forced them to sell formulations they know are problematic?
Has compitition forced them to buy ingrediants from sources they know have quality control problems?
Do they just not bother to check?
Like everyone, I was surprised to see how badly IO performed in the MARSH test. It seems like $10/50 gal bag can't buy reef aquarium grade salt.
Oh, and I'm loving my calcium reactor.
Nu2SW
New member
I dont think its borates, those only mainly affect SPS, not Zoa's.
My saliny was off the charte over 1.3, MY fault noobie mistake. I have no started to fix that issue.
Also the PH was lower it was 7.4 soooo both of those could of caused the issue.
Ill be checking that stuff today again.
My saliny was off the charte over 1.3, MY fault noobie mistake. I have no started to fix that issue.
Also the PH was lower it was 7.4 soooo both of those could of caused the issue.
Ill be checking that stuff today again.
CaliforniaDreamer
Premium Member
Yes a SG of1.03 is very high. Be careful and take it down slowly. And you are also correct that 7.4 is a very low pH. I would check your alkalinity level, it is probably very low also. BTW I didn't mean to imply that borate was your problem, just be careful with buffers that predominately use borate.
