I think I got some bad advice at the LFS

[IslandCrow]

erbio, what I'm talking about here is balance. I do understand the concept of adding live bacteria to a tank, but even if you dump a bunch of the right type of bacteria that's still alive into a tank, you don't achieve balance. No, I'm not a biologist, but do remember enough of my high school chemistry, to know you have to balance the equation on both sides. If the bacteria aren't in balance with the ammonia, they either die off or cannot handle the load. Even if it's a perfect balance, now you have an imbalance of nitrites/nitrates because you don't have sufficient denitrifying bacteria.

By the way, neither of my tanks had much of a "cycle". No detectable ammonia or nitrites and pretty reasonable levels of nitrates. I still waited before I added fish or invertebrates. You assume your success was because of this additive, but there are so many other variables, even with 5 successes, it's difficult to call it proof. We use the word "cycled" and seem to think it's synonymous with certain levels of ammonia, nitrate, etc. I think this can be deceiving. My definition of a cycled tank would be one that has achieved a balance of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria for a given environment. Unfortunately, there's no test kit for this. Throw new variables (like fish or invertebrates) into a system that hasn't reached a point of stability, and I'd say you're asking for trouble.

So, yes, I do things the hard way when I feel it's necessary, and that's my illogical/immature explanation.

 

[Tahlequah]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10254443#post10254443 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by IslandCrow
erbio, what I'm talking about here is balance. I do understand the concept of adding live bacteria to a tank, but even if you dump a bunch of the right type of bacteria that's still alive into a tank, you don't achieve balance. No, I'm not a biologist, but do remember enough of my high school chemistry, to know you have to balance the equation on both sides. If the bacteria aren't in balance with the ammonia, they either die off or cannot handle the load. Even if it's a perfect balance, now you have an imbalance of nitrites/nitrates because you don't have sufficient denitrifying bacteria.

I dont really mean to throw your equation off skelter, but from the point of an environmental specialist it would seem logical that after a certain amount of bacteria died then their dead and decaying cells would then feed the others keeping a balance untill a new bioload is introduced. Yes, you will see a spike in the ammonia after your new bioload releases their bile but only till the bacteria has time to reproduce.

BUT to put things in prospective, if you take the bacteria boxes that are sold in stores to jumpstart septic tanks and dump it down your drain you are not putting anything in there that you dont put in there by going number 2. It only takes time for the bacteria to reproduce from your bile,since your intestines have everything to start a septic tank's bioreactor. The same goes for fish but unlike you and me we dont have to swim in the septic tank.

Just a thought

 

[KMP]

it's not just your lfs' secret potion. saw some for the first time in our area. interesting.

 

[thecichlidpleco]

LFS=lies for sale

 

[Lotus99]

I'd say it's time to find a new LFS if they're trying to sell you lava rock and cycle bacteria as a foundation for your tank.

If you read some of the info in the thread at the top of the forum, or buy a couple of books, you'll get some great information to start you off.

 

[erbio]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10255188#post10255188 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Tahlequah
I dont really mean to throw your equation off skelter, but from the point of an environmental specialist it would seem logical that after a certain amount of bacteria died then their dead and decaying cells would then feed the others keeping a balance untill a new bioload is introduced. Yes, you will see a spike in the ammonia after your new bioload releases their bile but only till the bacteria has time to reproduce.

BUT to put things in prospective, if you take the bacteria boxes that are sold in stores to jumpstart septic tanks and dump it down your drain you are not putting anything in there that you dont put in there by going number 2. It only takes time for the bacteria to reproduce from your bile,since your intestines have everything to start a septic tank's bioreactor. The same goes for fish but unlike you and me we dont have to swim in the septic tank.

Just a thought

Again, there are products that don't work but there are products that do work.

The reason bio spira works is because it's LIVE bacteria, this product is shipped over night (with cold packs) if buying online and must be refrigerated.

Bio spira and Right Now! Bacteria WORK because after adding the bacteria to your tank you are instructed to immediately add fish that will immediately begin creating waste for the bacteria to consume.

I just don't understand how one could be against something they not only - don't understand but haven't even attempted.

I have 5 tanks, my largest being a 540 gallon, I'm not sure how many fish I have but I guess you would call these miracle tanks.

 

[Shagsbeard]

erb... don't get all fussy... but you're giving advice to people who don't have your experience, and then blaming them when they do something wrong. The advice we adhere to here, that of "patience", works with the least fuss. It works for experts and it works for idiots. While BioSpira might work for you, it's not going to work for everyone. In a more advanced forum, you wouldn't be out of place discussing it, but presenting it here as fact is irresponsable.

 

[Mare100]

Patience and helpful advice = Good

Referring to people as "idiots" on several posts = Very low class

How sad.

M

 

[1F2FRFBF]

Here's a link to the Bio Spira product:

http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ml_biospira.asp

Maybe there is a shortcut to cycling, who knows? It stands to reason that if you know what processes the bacteria go through to get to the end stage of the cycle and which are then present in a "healthy" fish tank, that you then might find a way to replicate these bacteria in a lab, bottle 'em up and sell 'em.

Only time will tell if accelerating the process will cheat a fish tank of any essential elements.

 

[erbio]

Giving advice for products you haven't tried and on top of that slamming them is irresponsible, that's my point.

This place seems to be FILLED with biochemists!

 

[sage_commander]

I'm very glad I got my rock from Tampa Bay Saltwater. Talk about live! It's LITERALLY crawling with stuff. Much better than some additive, IMO.

 

[Reefmack]

All I can say is that Bio-Spira has worked for me in both FW and SW. I've heard some say that it hasn't worked for them. They may have gotten material that wasn't properly refrigerated and died, or maybe the conditions in their tanks weren't optimum for the live bacteria to proliferate. And I know from experience that there are a lot of bacterial products out there that did absolutely nothing for me - dry and liquid products that evidently don't have much live bacteria in them, or the types of bacteria they do have aren't the ones we really need in our tanks. I'm only going from my own experience. To me the money spent on it was miniscule compared to all of the other costs in setting up and maintaining a reef tank. But, I'm able to get it locally & don't have to pay overnight shipping. What works for me may not work for everyone else.

 

[Tahlequah]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10256484#post10256484 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Shagsbeard
erb... don't get all fussy... but you're giving advice to people who don't have your experience, and then blaming them when they do something wrong. The advice we adhere to here, that of "patience", works with the least fuss. It works for experts and it works for idiots. While BioSpira might work for you, it's not going to work for everyone. In a more advanced forum, you wouldn't be out of place discussing it, but presenting it here as fact is irresponsable.

I will agree with that, sorry if what I said came across fussy. I guess what I was getting at was, that you can add the bacteria or not. Either way they will colonize the rock and sand.

 

[Frick-n-Frags]

somewhere up above, the key question was asked:

why do you even want to cycle? what possible future good can a huge processing of nutrients ultimately into measurable nitrates do for your system, besides make you one of the "OK, I have my different algae" club?
you don't have to ever detect nitrates and it helps by starting with cured LR and baserock, which is exactly what is here.
As you add things over time, the bacteria grows with the bioload and the de-nitrifiers have time to develop, and any of the maturity or seasoning or whatevewr you want to call it that lets macros and corals start doing really well.
also mentioned above: "take your time". yeah.


one of these years the light will go on and y'all will realizing that "cycling" is FO technology (many do already obviously)


the bacteria-in-a-bottle is for playing that IMO dangerous game of jumpstarting the whole thing at once. part of the game is putting fish in immediately too to feed this dose of bacteria.
once again, very feasible for FO, because the chemistry-nutrient-biology equation is really simple and all you need is to get the nitrate factory started, done.
you also can keep the lights off in a FO = MEGA HUGE ADVANTAGE OVER REEFTANK!

the whole biome idea of LR and the reef tank isn't so simple. many trace/organic chemistry level issues, multiple nutrition/waste water cleanliness issues. the biggest battle by far on these boards is with algae. every day. so therefore nutrients IS a huge issue in the long run. Why shoot yourself in the foot right out of the chute by intentionally rotting a shrimp etc in your previously nice nutrient poor water. it will eventually be algae

 

[Tahlequah]

Frick hit the nail on the head. For a FO system the "bacteria-in-a-bottle " can help decrease the stress on your fish by increasing the ammonia processing capacity before the fish are added.

 

[Reefmack]

I'll have to admit that in my SW situation, my cured LR may have indeed been more responsible for converting the ammonia, etc. than the Bio-Spira, but it was just used as an additional safeguard, if needed. It's obviously a totally different situation in a FW, FO tank, and I know the Bio-Spira helped in those situations. Even if I had a mature, but still fishless, SW tank, I'd still put the Bio-Spira in when adding the first fish, for peace of mind that it might at least assist with any excess ammonia until the newly introduced bacteria would become established, and the system would begin to take over the extra load. IMO it's a whole lot better than any of the other so-called instant cycle products. I guess the only point I was trying to make is that there are some products that have a chance of helping, and a whole lot more that are useless.

 

[WaterKeeper]

Everyone take it easy. No need for name calling. Apparently Erbio has a passion for Biospyra and that is fine. To date no one has ever quite figured out what saltwater bacteria is mainly responsible for the total nitrogen cycle in any tank. Certainly Biospyra may play a part but they are only one part of a team effort. It takes a group of different autotrophic bacteria to fully convert ammonia to nitrate and hetrotrophs to reduce it to nitrogen gas.

IMO; you are far better off adding some LR and waiting a few weeks. Only then can one be certain that their tank is not a lurking time bomb for any critters you add.

Take your time people. Rushing things is not a good philosophy in this hobby.

 

[markandkristen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10258907#post10258907 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Everyone take it easy. No need for name calling. Apparently Erbio has a passion for Biospyra and that is fine. To date no one has ever quite figured out what saltwater bacteria is mainly responsible for the total nitrogen cycle in any tank. Certainly Biospyra may play a part but they are only one part of a team effort. It takes a group of different autotrophic bacteria to fully convert ammonia to nitrate and hetrotrophs to reduce it to nitrogen gas.

IMO; you are far better off adding some LR and waiting a few weeks. Only then can one be certain that their tank is not a lurking time bomb for any critters you add.

Take your time people. Rushing things is not a good philosophy in this hobby.

well said waterkeeper.
i would like to add that years ago skimmers were hardly used now they are the norm.
as we advance in this hobby things will change. i know i added mostly live rock and no cycle that i could tell. started with one fish and then waited a month and added another etc..
i could def see if some one used the bio stuff and added a small fish in like a week then waited two weeks and added another. this would definately help rather than looking at a empty tank for 6 weeks.

 

[Sk8r]

Thank you, Waterkeeper: ---I would like to know if this Biospira can enliven base rock. And it would be a lot the same as what we used to do when we'd take a cup of a working-tank's sand and dump it in with base rock, to start a tank. Used to take about 8 weeks.

 

[coast2coast7390]

wow bad advice...there is no such thing as "instant cycle"...trust me i tried...doesnt work...the time might be cut down significantly but not the same day