I think I need a ground prob...

[Flems]

Last night I was doing a little maintenance in the tank and I noticed there was a cut on my that had quite the sting when It was IN the water. At first it wasnt noticeable, but once I started muckin around at the surface it was noticable more painful, so I did a quick test.

With just the tip of my finger submerged I could feel the sting at its worst. Removed my hand, dried it off, this time submerged it fully... nothing. My guess is there is some stray voltage which is less noticeable when there is a greater surface area of skin in the water, the cut only amplified my ability to feel it.

As far as livestock goes, everything is healthy and has had no change as of yet. I'll be checking the water with a voltmeter tonight to see if theres voltage and what's causing it.

Feel free to chime in if you have any ideas!

PS Please dont mind my spelling in the title; Im not a morning person . If a mod could fix it that'd be great!

 

[jasonrp104]

Shut off the tank and stick your hand in. You'll know for sure after that if it's a zap or just salt in a cut

BTW: I'd say get a probe anyways to be safe

 

[redfishblewfish]

I am anti-probe. A probe completes the circuit and now you have current flowing through your tank. The only thing a probe does is to protect you. If you get one, you might not notice that tingle when you stick you hand in, and would never know that you had a voltage leak. That tingle tells you that you need to find and replace that voltage-leaking item.

Also agree with above post about shutting off the tank and sticking your hand in. Better yet, stick a VOM (multimeter) into the tank and actually measure the voltage.

 

[Flems]

Thanks for the input guys. Ive heard the koralis have problems as far as voltage leaks go. I have three to boot.

Results to come later tonight.

 

[mcgyvr]

Salt+Cut=Sting

and to redfishblewfish.. always best to complete the circuit through a ground probe than to complete a circuit through your body. There is NO good reason to not have a ground probe.
Anti-probe=uneducated in safety.

All tanks should be equipped with a GFCI (and a ground probe) which will shut off the power in the event of "stray voltage"/current flow in the water.

 

[Porcupinepuffer]

Salt+Cut=Sting

and to redfishblewfish.. always best to complete the circuit through a ground probe than to complete a circuit through your body. There is NO good reason to not have a ground probe.
Anti-probe=uneducated in safety.

All tanks should be equipped with a GFCI (and a ground probe) which will shut off the power in the event of "stray voltage"/current flow in the water.

I work as a tradesman, I always have little cuts here and there on my hands, and let me tell you, when you have your hand in a saltwater tank, you slowly start feeling where all those cuts are when the salt starts hitting it. You might be just fine, but you might have some stray voltage. Definitely test it, and get a ground probe. The ground probe actually removes the smallest amount of electricity (which can be well within specs on your equipment) that wouldn't hurt us, but can, and does have a negative impact on your tanks inhabitants who are stuck dealing with it 24/7.

 

[djkms]

Do yourself a favor and get a ground probe. It was actually the first piece of equipment I bought this time around. Years ago I had a bad powerhead and no ground probe. I stuck my hand in the tank and it shocked the living daylights out of me. Water+Electricity can potentially kill you. Sure a ground probe can complete a circuit but would you rather it be completed through you or the wall? If your concerned about stray voltage in your tank test it with a voltmeter once in a while with the probe unplugged.

It's funny when people say don't buy one because it completes the circuit. I bet they will be at the LFS buying a probe faster than lightning when they get the crap shocked out of them.

The only thing a probe does is to protect you.

Sorry red I LOVE my fish but I do feel my well being is a bit more important then my fish.

 

[txbonds]

Do you run the ground probe through the GFI circuit, or would it trip the circuit? Just curious as I plan to add one on my new tank and wondered if it needed to go through a separate outlet to prevent tripping the GFI.

 

[mcgyvr]

You can tie the ground probe to the ground (green screw..not the neutral) on the GFCI or any other green ground for that matter. Even just the screw that holds the cover plate on the outlet because that should be a ground too.
The whole point of a GFCI is to turn off the power in the event of current flow on the ground wire/probe. A GFCI works by looking at the current on the hot lead and the current on the neutral lead.. If there is a difference of more than 5mA or so then the GFCI trips. Current that is flowing through the ground probe WILL and should cause the GFCI to trip (because that current is not flowing back on the neutral). Thats what you want.

 

[Flems]

Mcgyvr, thanks for the salt+cut arithmetic . I decided to actually bring it up because Ive had many cuts on my hands before (I get far to many from my current job, let alone low voltage shocks), but none have given me this reaction. It just started about 1 week ago with a few different cuts.

I dont have a voltmeter yet as Im waiting for a neighbour to return with his tonight. The ground prob has already been on my list of things to get. The GFCI is already in place of course.

 

[Flems]

This just in...

28VAC!!!

Further tests currently being conducted.

 

[Flems]

Further tests... inconclusive.

All numbers found are the voltage drop after unplugging each device.

Koralia 4 #1 -3.5v
K4 #2 - 3.5v
K2 - 2v
Return - 1v
MH - 0v
Fuge light - 0v
Skimmer - 1v
Heater - 1.5v
MJ1200 - 4.5v!
Float switch w/buzzer (DIY flood buzzer) - 5v!

Total - 22v

Heres kicker number 1. Checked the overall voltage again to be sure, its currently reading ~33v and is fairly unsteady (+/- 0.5v).

Confused (Mass effect reference, fellow gamers may recognize what its from).
Kicker number 2. When I unplug my DA RKL, voltage drops to 10v total. The PC4 supplies power to the skimmer, heater, fuge light, and MH; do the math with the numbers above and it doesn't add up. I removed the temp prob just to be sure, still no change.

Im at a loss here. Could I be doing something wrong?

Negative Probe > GFCI Ground
Positive Probe > Tank
AC on voltmeter. (~)

EDIT: After a complete power down. Base reading is ZERO, now back to ~28v. Its about time for bed; Ive gotta get up in 4 hrs. Are you as confused as I am? Good.

 

[Whitebird1]

Just a observation, BUD, stop cutting your hands!!! LOL!

 

[Jeff000]

I am anti-probe. A probe completes the circuit and now you have current flowing through your tank. The only thing a probe does is to protect you. If you get one, you might not notice that tingle when you stick you hand in, and would never know that you had a voltage leak. That tingle tells you that you need to find and replace that voltage-leaking item.

Also agree with above post about shutting off the tank and sticking your hand in. Better yet, stick a VOM (multimeter) into the tank and actually measure the voltage.

I agree with you.

<----- Electrician

More often then not these "stray voltage" is just inducted voltage on the meter, use a proper meter for the task please. I doubt any of you do this.

Salt+Cut=Sting

and to redfishblewfish.. always best to complete the circuit through a ground probe than to complete a circuit through your body. There is NO good reason to not have a ground probe.
Anti-probe=uneducated in safety.

All tanks should be equipped with a GFCI (and a ground probe) which will shut off the power in the event of "stray voltage"/current flow in the water.

I can not remember where the following was taken from, but its way easier for me to paste then me to write out.
===
Fish don't like electrical current to flow through their bodies. When higher electrical current levels flow through the water, fish will orient their bodies to minimize the potential (voltage) across their bodies, thereby minimizing the electrical current flowing through their bodies. At very low levels, the fish may only act strangely or seek areas of the aquarium where electrical current is not flowing. It is doubtful that continuous current flow through a fish's body is beneficial, and may in fact be the source of anecdotal reports of Hole in the Head disease and Lateral Line Erosion. If your tank is at a different potential from the "œground" in your house, no electrical current may exist in your tank based on this static voltage. However as soon as you ground your tank by inserting a "œgrounding probe", you will be guaranteed to have electrical current flowing even if the voltage drops

Further tests... inconclusive.

All numbers found are the voltage drop after unplugging each device.

Koralia 4 #1 -3.5v
K4 #2 - 3.5v
K2 - 2v
Return - 1v
MH - 0v
Fuge light - 0v
Skimmer - 1v
Heater - 1.5v
MJ1200 - 4.5v!
Float switch w/buzzer (DIY flood buzzer) - 5v!

Total - 22v

Heres kicker number 1. Checked the overall voltage again to be sure, its currently reading ~33v and is fairly unsteady (+/- 0.5v).

Confused (Mass effect reference, fellow gamers may recognize what its from).
Kicker number 2. When I unplug my DA RKL, voltage drops to 10v total. The PC4 supplies power to the skimmer, heater, fuge light, and MH; do the math with the numbers above and it doesn't add up. I removed the temp prob just to be sure, still no change.

Im at a loss here. Could I be doing something wrong?

Negative Probe > GFCI Ground
Positive Probe > Tank
AC on voltmeter. (~)

EDIT: After a complete power down. Base reading is ZERO, now back to ~28v. Its about time for bed; Ive gotta get up in 4 hrs. Are you as confused as I am? Good.

To start there is no positive or negative probe when working with AC.

All you are proving is inducted voltage and to a small extent the voltage from the salt water ions flowing.

This static voltage is harmless until you give it the probe to give it a path allowing current to flow through the tank.
I could go on if you like.
Found the link where i got what I quoted above from.
http://angel-strike.com/aquarium/GFI&TechnicalDetails.html
He has already written what I would say.

 

[jwoyshnar]

Unplug each pump one at a time and check for the voltage. Mine was a faulty return pump. Ground plug won't hurt but fix the problem.

 

[Gdevine]

Salt+Cut=Sting

and to redfishblewfish.. always best to complete the circuit through a ground probe than to complete a circuit through your body. There is NO good reason to not have a ground probe.
Anti-probe=uneducated in safety.

All tanks should be equipped with a GFCI (and a ground probe) which will shut off the power in the event of "stray voltage"/current flow in the water.

THANK YOU! This safety message about GFCI's and proper use should be a Sticky on this forum. Not kidding. People can kill themsleves...

 

[dworkman]

I've always noticed that even the smallest of cuts, scratches even, greatly amplify any stray current in the tank. I've got 3.5VAC from my Reeflo Barracuda that I cannot get rid of, and the only time I can feel it is when I have a cut...

 

[redawg]

Jeff000's post above +1

 

[djkms]

Jeff,

I have no doubt that a ground probe completes the circuit however I do have a question. How do we protect ourselves from being electrocuted without one? Will a GFI trip before a potentially lethal amount is introduced into a tank? I have been shocked by my previous tank and it was nothing nice let me tell you, hence why I insisted on buying one this time around.

Edit:
Nevermind, I found my answer in the article linked.

I do kind of wonder about something though. How well would the current travel from the sump to the display. I have nothing electrical in the display but my grounding probe. I have MP40's, 2 return lines and my overflow in the DT and thats it. My lights are suspended 15" from the water surface and everything else is in the sump. I have a fully submersed heater and 3 magnum pumps fully submersed in the sump.

hmmms seems I should have my probe in my sump with the rest of the crap...

 

[Jeff000]

Jeff,

I have no doubt that a ground probe completes the circuit however I do have a question. How do we protect ourselves from being electrocuted without one? Will a GFI trip before a potentially lethal amount is introduced into a tank? I have been shocked by my previous tank and it was nothing nice let me tell you, hence why I insisted on buying one this time around.

Read the GFCI part of the link I posted.
http://angel-strike.com/aquarium/GFI&TechnicalDetails.html

A grounding probe is not a fix, some people call it a bandaid, but its more like a dirty bandaid.

I've had the unfortunate pleasure of first hand use of the GFCI tripping, not with my tank, but with the sink, the gf's blow dryer cord was in the sink when I washed my hands, felt like someone snapped an elastic on my hand and the lights went out.