Ich and CUC

[JMorris271]

I see some posts that speak of doing a QT of 6 weeks for a CUC to guarantee that any ich has on shells have died .
I was under the impression that ich needs a fish host. So, what would be the purpose of such a QT?
I have been told on this forum by respondents to my question that there is no need to QT invert so I am confused.
Thanks.

 

[MondoBongo]

ich needs a fish host for specific stages of its life cycle.

there are other stages of its lifecycle where it is encysted on the substrate (or potentially a shell) and that is what you're guarding against.

although keep in mind, there are plenty of other nasties out there as far as parasite and diseases go. ich is just one of them.

-edit- here is a good run down on the ich parasite (Cryptocaryon irritans) and its biology:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

 

[gone fishin]

Yes there are multiple stages to the ich life cycle. The longest documented time for the encystment stage is 72 days, that I am aware of.

 

[JMorris271]

ich needs a fish host for specific stages of its life cycle.

there are other stages of its lifecycle where it is encysted on the substrate (or potentially a shell) and that is what you're guarding against.

although keep in mind, there are plenty of other nasties out there as far as parasite and diseases go. ich is just one of them.

-edit- here is a good run down on the ich parasite (Cryptocaryon irritans) and its biology:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

How can this ich get through any stage last without a host? Just trying to wrap my head around this.
Thanks

 

[gone fishin]

If I understand your question, you go to the store to buy some CUC. The store has everything on one system. They have ich in one tank on some fish, the ich falls of the fish goes through the system and encysts on some CUC shells. You walk into the store buy the CUC and drop them in your tank. Now your wondering where the ich came from.

 

[MondoBongo]

How can this ich get through any stage last without a host? Just trying to wrap my head around this.
Thanks

the parasite only needs a host when it is actively feeding. when it is in the tormont stage, it is effectively dormant from feeding (although not dormant in regards to it growing, as it is producing tomites).

so exactly like Tony said above. the ich leaves the fish and becomes a protomont. then encycsts on your snail's shell as a tormont. you take home that happy little snail, and the cyst ruptures and theronts swim out in to your tank, and infect your fish to feed.

 

[snorvich]

Additionally, certain inverts such as hermits and snails contain a bit of water. If that holds any of the infective stage of ich or other parasite, it is transferred to your system. This is a greater risk than the tormont encysting problem although that too is possible.

 

[tmz]

How can this ich get through any stage last without a host? Just trying to wrap my head around this.
Thanks

The free swimming phase need a fish within a few days after" hatching". Like a butterfly needs flowers when it breaks out of it's cocoon. Cysts have remained viable for up to 72days. As Steve noted some water coming in with the invert may also pose a risk.

 

[jd371]

Can you put the CUC in a new tank and wait 3-4 months before putting fish in the tank?

 

[snorvich]

Can you put the CUC in a new tank and wait 3-4 months before putting fish in the tank?

Sure.

 

[CuzzA]

It's also very unlikely you'll pick up ich from your cuc. Not impossible, but unlikely. Most fish stores have seperate runs for their fish and inverts because they usually run meds through the fish runs that would kill inverts.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it. Use a toothbrush to clean off the snail or crabs shell, inspect for pyramid snails and swish the invert in some disposable tank water outside the display and put them in.

 

[kmbyrnes]

Unless you are sure your LFS uses a separate system for inverts, QT 'em.
I don't worry about inverts from my LFS, but anything in the fish section like starfish or a nem sharing a tank with a fresh batch of clown hatchlings, has to be QT'd.

 

[CuzzA]

I wouldn't buy from a store that had inverts mixed with their fish run. That would be a dead give away they are not running any meds and whatever parasite or disease is in the system is living freely.

 

[MondoBongo]

I wouldn't buy from a store that had inverts mixed with their fish run. That would be a dead give away they are not running any meds and whatever parasite or disease is in the system is living freely.

so as i mentioned elsewhere, i have yet to see this done in practice, and even if it is, you have to take their word for it that they never had any water, rocks, or anything else from a system with fish in it, in that invert system.

you also have to take it on faith that their supplier does the same thing.

and as i previously stated, the only person i trust to QT my livestock is me. taking the word of an LFS is why most people end up here asking about problems with their systems.

 

[vhuang168]

And by extension, any coral you get would have to be qt'd for 72 days in case there are cysts on the frag plate or rock.

 

[CuzzA]

Ok. We're talking inverts. If you're going to qt them for 6 weeks then that same logic would have to be applied to EVERYTHING. Live rock, macro algae, sand, corals, pods, etc. Basically anything wet would get a six week qt.

And it's a good idea to develop a strong relationship with your LFS and understand how and what they do with their systems.

I think we over think things sometimes. Like qting snails and crabs.

 

[Sk8r]

There's one way to set up a tank with no qt of inverts, which is to start working on the reef aspect. As long as you have no fish in the tank, and the time is past the point at which encysted ich has to find a fish, you have no ich problem. If you then deal with the fish aspect of the operation, and bring in clean fish, you have no ich problem.

 

[MondoBongo]

And by extension, any coral you get would have to be qt'd for 72 days in case there are cysts on the frag plate or rock.

ich is the least of my concerns when it comes to corals. red bugs, AEFW, nudibranchs, now there are some things to be scared of, and a perfectly good reason to QT them as well.

Ok. We're talking inverts. If you're going to qt them for 6 weeks then that same logic would have to be applied to EVERYTHING. Live rock, macro algae, sand, corals, pods, etc. Basically anything wet would get a six week qt.

And it's a good idea to develop a strong relationship with your LFS and understand how and what they do with their systems.

I think we over think things sometimes. Like qting snails and crabs.

it's all about your tolerance for risk.

as it were, i DO qt everything. macro, rocks, corals, etc... if it is wet, it gets QT'd.

 

[gone fishin]

ich is the least of my concerns when it comes to corals. red bugs, AEFW, nudibranchs, now there are some things to be scared of, and a perfectly good reason to QT them as well.



it's all about your tolerance for risk.

as it were, i DO qt everything. macro, rocks, corals, etc... if it is wet, it gets QT'd.

I agree, information is out there in the threads. It is up to the individual whether they feel it is necessary to QT or not.

 

[tmz]

IMO the usual fishless chain of custody duration from inverts and rock reduces the risk for introducing ich very significantly vs fish.

Mass coral killing parasitic infestations( tegastes, acro eating flatworms, montipora eating nudibranch, etc) from new coral specimens are sadly too common and devasting in reef tanks(particularly for sps) and make the case for qt and preventative treatment for corals whether they carry ich or not.