Ich and how to get rid of it using HypoSalinity.

[Gilmoreriver]

Why do people not just hypo their main DT tank? I do not have much coral in my tank right now and can easily move it to a frag tank, so was just thinking about dropping the salinity in my main tank but can not find out why people do not do that. Any info would be appreciated.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Why do people not just hypo their main DT tank? I do not have much coral in my tank right now and can easily move it to a frag tank, so was just thinking about dropping the salinity in my main tank but can not find out why people do not do that. Any info would be appreciated.

Hypo can wipe all inverts all corals and also damage biofilter/bacterial colony. throwing all parameters and conditions against saltwater principles.
also its best to treat in qt to eliminate all other factors like rock sand nitrate phos issues hydrogen sulfide gas etc just to point a few.
a bare tank with only water doesnt have much to interfere in treatment.

note: all that die off from rock/sand and pods etc will cause major ammonia issues.

 

[Gilmoreriver]

Ok thanks for the response. That all makes sense.

 

[mpsti05]

This was a good read on hypo http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm I literally just lost all my fish from a fight with ich, came in on a flame angel I introduced two weeks ago, within a few days white spots everywhere, died, spread to both my 2yr old clowns blue spot jaw and Midas Blenny, I was in disbelief this crap was happening. Im pretty sure I'll be tearing down my current tank and setting up my new one but I might do what was suggested in that article and run the tank at 1.017 for awhile and see how that goes with my Duncan colony and giant gbta. Felt like a kick in the stomach.

 

[Zedzo]

I totally agree with bnumair, I think that's exactly what happen to me. I have such a dilemma on my hands at the minute and could really use some advice from you guys.

I started up a QT, I'm very new to the hobby, no more than a year or so in. My QT is 25G, has about 10kg of live rock and a Tunze internal filter.

I dropped the salinity down to 1.009 over a period of a week and the fish just became super distressed, I checked my nitrate levels which had jumped from zero to 80ppm within a day. Was this because of the die off from the rock? Or was it because of overzealous water changes? I was doing about 20% water changes daily, replacing with RODI water.

I had no choice but to put them back in the ich infested DT until i fixed the issue, no surprises they got visible ich again.

A couple of weeks in I've got the water parameters back to reasonable levels in my QT with nitrates about 2.5ppm and zero ammonia. I've decreased the salinity gradually which is now reading 1.020 and will continue to decrease it gradually over the next week or so.

I'm worried that the same thing will happen again with a drop in salinity causing a nitrate spike and fish needing to undergo 'emergency evacuation' from the QT.

May I ask if you guys could advise me as to how best to deal with this issue. Should I take the rock out and then drop the salinity, and of course if I remove the biological filtration ammonia levels will rise. And how often should I be doing water changes to ensure my water parameters don't go crazy. I admit I was feeding my fish a lot, sometimes 3 times a day because the LFS advised me to make sure they were well fed so that they could fight off the ich, could this also have contributed to the rising nitrates?

Thanks for all your comments.

 

[Dr. Reef]

I would strongly recommend not to use live rock in qt, its best to setup qt bare and simple.
With dropping salinity low pH may also go low so use a buffer to bump it up.
if there is no rock in qt you wont run into nitrates that high atleast.
Please read through the sticky Guide to setup a QT tank. it should answer most of the questions for setup then run hypo as mentioned in this thread.

 

[EddieJ]

You can go down in SG much quicker. No need to make it over a week. Fish can handle the drop very well. I drop fish in 1.016 from 1.026 with zero problems. Just make sure your temperature is matched. Then drop to 1.009 the next day. It is going up that you need to be nice a gradual. The fish welcome the lower SG as they are spending much less energy on osmoregulation and more on immune system and eating..

 

[Dr. Reef]

It is true drop in salinity to hypo can be done over 48 hrs. Fish can handle drop in SG to hypo but raising back up should be done slow and easy.

 

[EddieJ]

Also, do a google search for Salty Zoo calculator, they have a nice water change calculator for adjusting salinity.

 

[Zedzo]

Awesome! Thanks for the input folks I really appreciate it! I had followed the QT instructions from the sticky as advised and I'll keep you guys updated on my progress.

Also interesting to know fish use less energy in hyposalinity!

I understand saltwater fish produce small amounts of concentrated urine as their bodies are hypotonic. Would this imply that in hyposalinity the fish would need to drink much less and so effectively become anuric! If this is the case could hyposalinity have any detrimental effect on their kidneys? Or would that take absolutely ages!

Secondly I noticed my fish having buoyancy problems at hyposalinity, my yellow tang and percula seemed to go belly up in low salinity water and when back in normal salinity water they recovered within a short space of time..

Do fish need saltwater to be able to regulate their swim bladder?

Thank you for the advice guys!

 

[Zedzo]

OK guys I've dropped the salinity gradually over the last 2 days on my 25G QT. I did 5 gallon water changes replacing with RODI with a little sodium bicarb to buffer.

I just got the salinity down to the magic number of 1.009 and my purple tang is starting to swim upside down, goes unconscious for a few seconds and then flinches back to life. He had the least ich when I put him in QT. The rest of the fish seem fine.

My parameters are salinity 1.009, pH 8, dKH 11, Temp 81, Ammonia zero, nitrates 2.5ppm.

I really don't wana lose MadDog (that's what my purple tang is called), he's feisty and it's very sad to see him this way...

Hope you guys can help.

Thanking you in advance!

 

[EddieJ]

The time I tried hyposalinty my fish never did that. I had 2 tangs (yellow and Hippo), 2 BT Triggers, a wrasse and a couple of chromis in the tank. They never missed a beat and were swimming around just fine. But then again, 1 time is a very small sample size.

 

[Dr. Reef]

that is strange behavior, keep an eye on him, seems like ich might have been more in the gills than outside making fish act strangely or could be parameter shock.
either way keep an eye on him and post back the results.Hope it all goes well.
Good luck

 

[ganjero]

Conclusion:
For someone with none to some experience to experts i think hypo is one of the easiest and with least complications.

IMO&E I would say it's opposite. Hypo is for the more experience hobbyist.

Good write-up on the subject though.

 

[Zedzo]

Right folks I have an update.... MadDog (my purple tang) is sick... really sick, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't last the night. Part of me wants to give him a dignified death and put him to rest, and part of me wants him to make a miraculous recovery as I really want to keep him.

I've had to evacuate the unhappy fish and put them back into the DT which has 'normal salinity'.

This is such a kick in the stomach and as stupid as I feel, I must share with you my mistake, this way hopefully everyone else (although I'm sure none of you are as stupid as me) will NOT make the same mistake.

My refractometer (made by ATC) which I thought was calibrated was in fact way way out, by an SG of 0.007 over the true reading.... overconfidence in my equipment resulted in this error... It's true what my old prof said once 'trust no-one, believe nothing', I'd extend that to 'trust no one and nothing until calibrated and believe nothing until proven'.

When I was chasing the magic number and got it... my salinity could have actually been 1.002!

I don't know how it happened as I tested the refractometer with RODI water when new and it seemed to be working just fine... however that was a year ago. I had not touched the calibration screw ever since then.

The instructions from bnumair were good, excellent in fact, and if I had calibrated my refractometer this would not have happened....

My refractometer doesn't allow calibration below 1.005, at this point the calibration screw doesn't turn any further.... even though the scale reads down to 1.000!!! What a piece of junk!

Although I haven't got the graph or evidence to prove I think the relationship between weight of salt vs water volume may be kinda linear (stab in the dark)... So for emergency circumstances I've 'calibrated' my refractometer so that 1.010 is RODI water... equivalent to 1.000. Confusing? Tell me about it!!!!!

If I had an accurate refractometer I wouldn't be in this mess. And the guy that sold it to me.... I can only hope he doesn't have another dodgy one to sell to anyone else!

Lessons learnt from all this:

1. Hyposalinity is safer than it seems if done correctly, some of my fish were actually happy in ultrahyposalinity water (1.002) and so I believe 1.009 should be more than manageable.... if done correctly.... for God sake calibrate your stuff folks!!

2. Never buy anything online especially if your entire livestock depends on it....

3. Add buffer.

4. Instead of carrying gallons and gallons of water, start with a small amount in your DT and fill gradually with RODI as instructed in the beginning of this thread rather than removing and adding and removing and adding... will mean much less weight carried!

5. Don't listen to anything I have to say because I can barely do it right myself! lol

 

[EddieJ]

The proper way to calibrate a refractometer is to use a 35ppt solution. Pinpoint sells this solution. Using RODI water is not the proper method of calibration for a refractometer. Hope this fish makes a turn for the better!

 

[hogfanreefer]

I had a wrasse that was heavily infected with ich especially in the gills. He swam upside down for several days before succumbing. I do think the gill involvement had something to do with his strange behavior.

The other fish in QT hypo with him did great. They are in the process of raising the salinity to go to the DT. Up to 1.012 today (day two). Good luck with your other fish.

 

[Zedzo]

Ahhhh sugar! Thanks EddieJ, they say every day is a school day! i will try and get some 35ppt callibration solution...

Oh and an error in my previous post I just want to correct, what I was trying to say was I think the correlation between SG and water weight is directly proportional.... knowing that water density at room temp is very nearly 1 g/cm3, this would imply my hypothesis was reasonable even though my standard for measurement (TDS water) for calibration was wrong.

Man I've got a lot to learn!!

Thanks for all your input I wish I'd joined RC sooner.

Oh and my purple tang,,, he's still alive , not lost any fish,,, lets just say they kinda went through a 12 hour freshwater dip... how careless and cruel of me.

Hope to never make the same mistake again.

 

[Dr. Reef]

we have all made mistakes we didnt mean to. there was No RC (if there was internet was a luxury with dial up modems back then) when i started reefing so i have a lot of trial and errors and i put myself and livestock through a lot, but we learn and move forward.
Consider this as learning experience and do more research and continue.
Fish being alive is a good thing.
god luck

 

[Zedzo]

Hello Folks! I just thought I'd give you an update on how my hyposalinity venture is going!

I invested in a new refractometer which can read SG from 1.000 to 1.070 (same scale as my old dodgy one).
I asked the guys at my LFS to calibrate it for me which they were kind enough to do.

I'm happy to say it's going really well! MadDog (my purple tang) along with all the other fish are completely content in the 1.009 SG water. They are feeding well, no visible signs of ich. It's been about 4 days now that they have been in hyposalinity and I'm sure they'll continue to do well.

One very small issue: I did notice when using the supplied cloth to clean the prism of the refractometer I found that even RODI water was giving a higher SG reading than expected. When i used dry paper towels to clean the prism instead of the salt saturated cloth the reading went down to virtually 1.000 for RODI water.

Therefor additional recommendations for measuring SG during hyposalinity setup:

1. Use clean dry paper towel to ensure all the salt is cleaned off the prism on your refractometer.

I've now also added a 20W D-D Pro UV sterilizer onto my main display tank which will hopefully kill off any trophonts floating about. If money wasn't an object I'd also want a UV sterilizer on my QT too! that way I'd be killing off any other floating nasties.

But yeah, done it properly and I'm sold on this Hyposalinity business. Remarkable that these delicate creatures can have such a high tolerance!

I'll update you guys on how it goes when the 4 weeks of hyposalinity for the fish and 8 weeks for the DT are up and I've re-introduced them into the DT.

One final questions before I go... I was lucky enough to get hold of some beautiful picasso clowns a couple of weeks ago. They are still in the LFT at the minute. Was going to bring them home once my hyposalinity was complete. My question is should I run them through a hyposalinity cycle too even though they don't show signs of ich?

I wouldn't want to re-introduce ich when quarantining my new picasso clowns in regular salinity.

I was thinking about cupramine and got some cupramine as a backup with the API test kit and the colour chart on the API test kit was an absolute joke! To my eye there's virtually no colour difference between 1.0 ppm and 0.5 ppm of copper - basically the difference between life and death. The colour shades are not obvious enough for me to risk!
Hyposalinity seems a much safer option!
What do you think guys?
Any advice would be appreciated!
Ciao for now!