Ich Buster - Immune System Booster?

Phillybean

New member
One common viewpoint on Ich is that it will always make it's way into our tank and that the best way to beat it, is healthy fish with a strong immune system.

I have yet to see a discussion on the theory of using immune system boosters (Echinacea, Vitamin C, Ginseng, Selenium, Zinc, Multi-Vitamen). Selenium and Zinc are common is types of Seafood, which we may already be providing to our fish. Garlic is known as a common Ich treatment, which is also an Immune System Booster.

Could a blend of Immune System Boosters be what we need for our fish? Maybe garlic isn't as good at Ginseng, or Zinc. Could mixing a Multi-Vitamen with fish food be a Ich cure or at least prevention?

Discuss.
 
I will opine. I can't sleep. My pager is going off incessantly.

Vaccination is the only tool we have to make the immune system better.

Here comes the grenade.

Past this, the immune system is a tricky thing to "boost" in any general sense. To do so... is folly in my opinion. A boosted immune system (the way I imagine it) not necessarily a good thing. It is arthritis, lupus, lymphoma, glomerullitis, adult respiratory distress syndrome, sepsis syndrome and a whole list of other bad problems. In my days doing prostate cancer, bladder and kidney cancer research with REAL immune boosters like anti-CTLA 4, interferon, Interlukens, etc... I will tell you there are significant side effects for anything that actually works to boost the immune system in any measurable way. Think about inflammation. This hurts. Inflammation can cause tissue destruction and can be a disease in itself. That is your immune system boosted! Think about that aweful all over body ache and headache you get with the flu or a cold. Hello immune system! Do you REALLY want to boost that past natures intended response? When I see people clammer for anything that says "boosts the immune system", I cringe.

That millennia of evolution left out one tiny key ingredient... like Garlic... to make the immune system work optimally just makes me laugh. Trust me when I say that millions of dollars are being spent on this research year after year and the magic immune booster has not been found. Sorting this out is easily as complex as finding the "cure" for cancer. Most of what is out there is either totally ineffective or dangerous, IMO.

A pot of vitamins? Unless you are correcting a vitamin deficiency.. you are throwing your money away IMO. To the people who print labels that say "cures Ich" or "boosts the immune system" we should all say... "Show me the data!". Or even design a study to prove that these things work. The cost would be astronomical. It is cheaper to just gather some anecdotes, make a pretty label, and start selling the stuff at high prices. Beware consumer.

That being said... the immune system (along with the rest of the organism) can be weakened by poor nutrition (vitamin deficiency), bad water quality, and overwhelmed by a huge exposure to a certain pathogen or combination of pathogens. These are the things that make Ich a problem in aquariums and not in the wild.

Basically, you are watching a race between the pathogen to feed on the host, breed, and infect other hosts... against the host to sense the invader, digest it's parts (macrophages) present them to the bone marrow, lymph nodes, thymus and spleen, build the appropriate antibodies and direct a population of T Cells, Natural Killers, and a bunch of others to coat and digest the incoming pest. This library of antibodies and T Cells sticks around for a period of time greatly speeding up the process the next time the bug comes around.

So, if the pest attacks a healthy organism in small numbers, it will innoculate the host without symptoms ultimately resulting in immunity. If the pest attacks a not so healthy organism in huge numbers.. the host my not survive... and turns into a giant contageous feeding station for the pest.

So, meet your fishes needs to the best of your ability with good nutrition, optimal water quality. Avoid overstocking. If garlic restores your fishes appetite.. then use it. You can get cheap garlic paste in a tube at the grocery store for 5 bucks a tube. Or, buy the same thing from the fish store for 20 bucks a tube.

Ich is an obligate parasite, so, if you take ALL of the fish out of the tank for six to 8 weeks you can have an Ich free tank again. These, would be treated with copper or hypo before reintroduction. Then be sure to isolate your new fish for six weeks before introduction into you display tank and consider treating them with Copper or hyposalinity during that period. If you do not do these things, you will get Ich sooner or later. I did!

Short of that, you can try UV. Remove just the fish that show spots. Vacuum your gravel (carefully) each night. The idea to cut down on the Ich population in your tank... (I have done this) but... many people whom I respect will blast these measures as ineffective.

I was taught by the head of infectious disease at the institition from which I recieved my medical degree... that no antibiotic / antifungal / antiviral / antiparisite medication can eradicate 100% of the invading organism. The goal is to reduce the bacterial / parasite / fungal population enough.. and for long enough... to allow the patient's immune system to wipe out the invader. The idea is to remind us that good nursing, wound care, surgical drainage, good nutrition is often sufficient. And, unless you know exactly what you are treating, and that your treatment will work, you should not expose the patient to pills or other untested chemicals etc...

So, in my opinion, if you can't fallow the tank... concentrate on keeping your fish healthy and lowering the load of parasites in the tank in any way that does not harm the fish left in the display tank. I will deviate from purists in the hobby when I include removing obviously infected fish from the system for treatment in a quarantined area.

Just know that you will probably see spots again from time to time, especially on any new fish, if you don't fallow your tank.

I did recently try a product called Kick Ich. It is basically nasty old tea that you pour in your tank. I did this when someone I knew "swore by it". Clever theory (not what is on the label though)... that it smells so bad it interferes with chemotaxis when the swarmers come out to find the fish, they can't do it. I tried it. No noticeable effect. The response of the company was to buy more of it. I started to feel like a chump and quit using it.

Hopefully, my post will prove an effective cure to others insomnia as it was mine.

Cheers and happy reefing.
 
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Yes, I agree with the above. But the "boosting immune system" products are a huge industry because they sound like logical alternatives. Certainly there is really no way to measure the immune system of a marine animal, or at least not without taking drastic measures. If it makes you feel good to buy these products, go ahead, most of them won't do any harm except possible raise your nutrients level. But don't expect any real, measurable effect. In your fish or really in you.
 
very well stated fishtruck

as with the majority of "additives" to your tank I believe the operant word is moderation.
If you feel personally that garlic will improve the health of your fish then use it, but very little.

Same with using immune system boosters (Echinacea, Vitamin C, Ginseng, Selenium, Zinc, Multi-Vitamen).

Here is a good read on improving the health of fish through proper nutrition

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=11172768#post11172768
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13106952#post13106952 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cheetos&Cocopuf
Formula 2 (mushed up with a fork) seems to keep my fish's immune system very healthy.

formula2 is great---and I am assuming it is the frozen since you can mush it with a fork;)
However it is not a total self sufficient diet for any fish---you need a variety of frozen foods, silver sides minnows, shrimp, spiralina algae ect ect
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13107534#post13107534 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capn_hylinur
formula2 is great---and I am assuming it is the frozen since you can mush it with a fork;)
However it is not a total self sufficient diet for any fish---you need a variety of frozen foods, silver sides minnows, shrimp, spiralina algae ect ect



Yep, agree with you totally Cap'n.
Variety is not only the spice of life but, the spice of good health too. :)
 
Let's stir the pot a bit. :) While I agree with most of what is above--and most wholeheartedly that "immune boosters" in fish are largely not useful for what hobbyists need (ie, a cure), I will correct 2 things--
1. There are definite measureable ways to check the effectiveness of a fish's immune system, both directly (via blood measurements) and indirectly( via ability to stave off disease. Remarkably, this is true in shrimps as well. Why? Because fisheries is big business, and anything farmers can do to prevent a wipeout of their livestock is good.
2. There have been numerous studies listing all kinds of things which actually do "boost" immune response. beta-glucan is one, there are loads more...including if I recall correctly, mango seeds. Again--farmers need defenses.

That said, in very practical terms, I am very careful when I speak about anything which boosts immunity because people take that as me saying the fish is strong and can fight things off. In fact, there is no measurement of "you need X boost to Y system to beat Z pathogen...so all it is is perhaps a little help. Most of the boosters are harmless anyway, so as long as people use them as adjuvant therapy and not as a treatment, everything is good.

Prevention is best of course, and I 100% agree that nutrition is key to maintenance of health, and faster recovery from illness.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13127948#post13127948 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Spracklcat
Let's stir the pot a bit. :) While I agree with most of what is above--and most wholeheartedly that "immune boosters" in fish are largely not useful for what hobbyists need (ie, a cure), I will correct 2 things--
1. There are definite measureable ways to check the effectiveness of a fish's immune system, both directly (via blood measurements) and indirectly( via ability to stave off disease. Remarkably, this is true in shrimps as well. Why? Because fisheries is big business, and anything farmers can do to prevent a wipeout of their livestock is good.
2. There have been numerous studies listing all kinds of things which actually do "boost" immune response. beta-glucan is one, there are loads more...including if I recall correctly, mango seeds. Again--farmers need defenses.

That said, in very practical terms, I am very careful when I speak about anything which boosts immunity because people take that as me saying the fish is strong and can fight things off. In fact, there is no measurement of "you need X boost to Y system to beat Z pathogen...so all it is is perhaps a little help. Most of the boosters are harmless anyway, so as long as people use them as adjuvant therapy and not as a treatment, everything is good.

Prevention is best of course, and I 100% agree that nutrition is key to maintenance of health, and faster recovery from illness.

very well stated answer and appreciated --thank you for sharing your obvious expertise:cool:
 

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