Ich (Cryptocaryon) Always Present In A Marine Tank - Your Thoughts and Experiences

[wolfblue]

But cant I just hook up a 1 watt UV to my 240 and run 960 GPH through the UV...

Seriously though, I don't think it has to be in any tank with a fish in it. I've been salt since 1980 or 81', and I'm usually pretty low on fish stocking and I think that helps. I once went about 8 years without seeing crypto and I added a couple without QT in that time. Nobody quarantined back then that I know of.

 

[tassod]

I just setup a new tank which was an upgrade and did everything right to my knowledge for QT'ing all my fish for a 14 week period using hypo and parzipro. All the fish looked great so in they went. Now 2 weeks after all this I just noticed that 2 of my fish have some spots. This of course bummed me out. The fish are eating and doing fine otherwise and I hope they get over it and I don't plan to add anymore fish but IMO and this is just me and everyone else can say whatever they want...it's just not worth it. If I were to start over, I would not QT.

 

[rabbitrun]

I just setup a new tank which was an upgrade and did everything right to my knowledge for QT'ing all my fish for a 14 week period using hypo and parzipro. All the fish looked great so in they went. Now 2 weeks after all this I just noticed that 2 of my fish have some spots. This of course bummed me out. The fish are eating and doing fine otherwise and I hope they get over it and I don't plan to add anymore fish but IMO and this is just me and everyone else can say whatever they want...it's just not worth it. If I were to start over, I would not QT.

I only QT now to get my fish eating I have read too many stories similar to yours. I also have read many threads of people battling ich with a healthy tank.... Although QTing seems like the best bet it just doesn't like its 100% guaranteed.

 

[triggreef]

This shouldnt be a poll. I understand what you are trying to ask but your question is fundamentally illogical. Lets think it through.

Premise 1: Ich is inherently present. Obviously Ich isnt always going to be in a tank. If I have an empty tank full of RO/DI water and salt there will be no Ich. So it has to be introduced. In addition, Ich is a parasite and needs a host to survive. A tank without an adequate host can not sustain Ich (separate frag tank system).

Premise 2: The introduction of Ich can not be avoided. This premise is also flawed. Ich is not airborne so must come in via an introduction to the tank. If I add dry rock that has been bleached it obviously will be devoid of life. Someone who maintains a fish-less system will not have Ich.

So we have established that there can be an Ich free system (your poll question). The interesting question is whether or not it is feasible to try to maintain an Ich free system. Meaning can you QT sufficiently to prevent entry or are you willing to maintain a fish-less tank.

To QT to prevent Ich is the question at hand. There is plenty of literature available because of commercial fisheries. The Ich life cycle estimates vary from one study to another but is agreed to be roughly 6-8 weeks. Anything would have to be QTed for a mininmum of that time to eliminate Ich. But people do not realize that Ich life cycle functions on a bell curve, as does most of biology. Think of height in humans. The average height may be 5'10'', but there could be a family that are all above 6'6''. The same works with Ich. It is possible that one "strain" could have a life cycle of 10 weeks. So it is impossible to ever guarantee all Ich will be eliminated via QT. The best you can do is lengthen the QT to increase the probability that all parasites are dead. This applies to anything wet going in the tank.

This does not work for fish, who act as hosts. A fish with a healthy immune system may act as a psudo carrier for Ich. If one parasite is survives it will not produce visible symptoms. This parasite will take several weeks to pass through a life cycle and produce the parasite form (Trophont) that is visible on the fish. This would mean the fish would appear healthy for more than 8 weeks even though Ich was present. Theoretically a fish could go on for years with a baseline small infection. The other option is to treat all fish, but treatment carries some risk of not completely eradicating Ich. Copper or Hypo carry more risk of leaving some Ich alive because they allow for variability in parasite susceptibility and correct dosage levels and times. Tank transfer, as far as I can see, would come closer to a guarantee of no Ich if done for a long enough interval and under the right conditions.

Thus, the question for your poll should be "Experiences on the effectiveness of an 8 wk QT" or "Opinion: Is QT for Ich really worth it" rather than "Is Ich always present in a marine tank". HTH

All very good info. If you didn't read this because its long, go back and read it.

So let's say you have a 100% healthy and fat new fish.

Should you:
1. Put fish into QT spend 1-2 weeks getting fish used to aquarium life.
2. Then no matter what the fish looks like go right into hypo / copper for a few weeks.
3. Then keep the fish in QT without treatments for up to 8 weeks to make sure nothing go through?

I take chances, but I'm impatient and am well aware of the risks I take. I QT fish, but have not set up an invert QT.

My last dozen or so fish I changed my QT methods up a bit, but I like to give them a week in an established QT to just get used to tank life. After I'm satisfied with that, and have kept an eye out for bacterial problems or other issues that need to be addressed other than ich, I then begin TTM. Very good luck with TTM especially after going to using 20g tanks instead of 32g trash cans which make it hard to spot other issues. Prazi can be done on the 2nd and 4th transfer if you feel its needed.

After TTM straight to display. Very confident I have no ich, since I have 6 tangs I think it would show up if I did.

My tanks are too heavily stocked to keep adding fish so I haven't QT'd anything in a long while now. Almost miss it. not really.

 

[triggreef]

Also to the OP, 8 weeks isn't lon enough if you are not

1. treating proactively for ich.

2. using TTM, also a proactive treatment.

It can take a long time to show up. IMO, there should always be something done to treat ich prior to putting your fish into display, or there is always a good chance it will show up.

Also IMO from what I've read, it makes a ton of sense that the parasite can hitch hike in its cyst form from an infected tank on a piece of rock, frag plug, or even plant matter.

 

[tmz]

I agree it will almost always be present without good quarantine practices. A tank can easily be free of it with solid practices; nothing is %100.

Hypo salinity is not always effective;tank transfer as a preventative treatment followed by observation in qt is more so;copper usually is effective but it's hard to manage ammonia with it sometimes , some fish can be sensitive to it and maintaining a therapuetic dose can be tedious and imprecise in practice.
Sometimes hypo just slows the parasite down and masks it. Some strains can survive it or mutate generationally to adapt; there's a new generation every couple of weeks in most cases,btw.
Some fish that survive an initial infestation develop a partial immunity to the partiicular strain . They still have the parasite in lower numbers in the softer hidden tissue of the nostrils ,mouth an gills;the life cylce continues until a stress event or new fish is introducued which often spikes and outbreak. One parasite can produce a couple of hundred ,then two weeks later each surviving parasite another couple of hundred . It doesn't take very long to overwhelm a tank.



It is not always present ,it must enter with a fish or as a cyst. The later is rare unless the rock comes from an infested tank. Consider that most "live" rock goes through a period of time in the chain of custody and the curing process before it ever get's close to a fish. A newly hatched free swimming parsite needs a fish within about a day or it starves. Most tomites/the encyted phase "hatch" in 2 weeks though some have survived up to 72 days in one study in colder water.

This thread may be of interest:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2185929&highlight=fish+acclimation+and+quarantine

 

[bd0gg]

I agree with hyposalinity.

I foolishly used a freshwater fish treatment on my marine fish last year...completely failing to see the bold red text "FOR FRESHWATER FISH ONLY".

On the first day of treatment I noticed heavy breathing from all the fish. But proceeded with treatment as I remember thinking it seemed to be clearing it in some of the fish. The next morning I put the second lot of treatment in the tank..... two minutes later I went back to the tank and all the fish were on the bottom, lifeless. In a state of panic I made up a bucked of salt water, scooped the bodies of my fish from the substrate and into the bucket.

Within a few minutes all 5 of the fish (dog faced puffer, clownfish, picasso triggerfish, domino damsel and green spotted puffer) began moving their fins and floated from the bottom of the bucket and began swimming, albeit groggily. They are still alive today.

It's very lucky I didn't lose my fish and I'm no expert... but I recommend steering well clear of freshwater fish treatments for ich.

Hope this helps