Ich discussion

[JohnnyRedd]

Local thread on Facebook has me thinking about a few things.

1. Tank has been running awhile with the same fish. No signs of ich for quite some time. Fish have probably established some type of immunity or defense. Ich is still present and shows if a new fish is added. How is it surviving?

2. Any idea what the effect of ammonia is on ich?

Just thinks I haven't really thought about until they brought it up. They were asking about rid-ich for an established tank.

 

[Dealseer]

For the newly added fish; is it 100% certain they were ich free?

 

[snorvich]

rid-ich is snakeoil. How was the new fish quarantined?

 

[danrobberg]

I am not certain but I think I read that ich has a total life cycle of about a year if no fish are introduced. So if you fish had ich but developed a defense to it that that strain will be completely gone in about a year and it would be safe to add new fish. However, if you add new fish in the mean time they can catch the ich or introduce a new strain and the clock starts all over. Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

I have used rid ich in the past many years ago and had no success.

 

[JohnnyRedd]

I do not know that they were quarantined but it does not change my question.

What happens to ich during the lets just say months no new fish are added

 

[snorvich]

I do not know that they were quarantined but it does not change my question.

What happens to ich during the lets just say months no new fish are added

Depending on strain, absent a fish host (no fish in system), it will be eliminated usually by 72 days.

 

[rona74]

I am not certain but I think I read that ich has a total life cycle of about a year if no fish are introduced. So if you fish had ich but developed a defense to it that that strain will be completely gone in about a year and it would be safe to add new fish. However, if you add new fish in the mean time they can catch the ich or introduce a new strain and the clock starts all over. Can anyone confirm if this is correct?

I have used rid ich in the past many years ago and had no success.

i would like to know allso if its true about 1 year life cycle (if i will not add anythin to my tank ich will be gone) or its just a myth or speculation ?
thanks

 

[snorvich]

i would like to know allso if its true about 1 year life cycle (if i will not add anythin to my tank ich will be gone) or its just a myth or speculation ?
thanks

Read this. That means no fish in tank, however. It does not mean leaving fish in the tank.

 

[Mishri]

I see no reason to believe ich will disappear after a year, for several reasons, first, how do you know you only have 1 strain? Your fish could be infected by multiple strains at once. 2nd? why would a single strain die out after just 5-26 life cycles? I can't think of a reason for that, as they don't breed.

Also, immunity doesn't mean they can't be infected with ich, they either don't show spots(still infected in gills), or wont get a significant infection. You could think of it like Delta32, (The genetic mutation that makes some humans highly resistant to HIV, but they can still spread/carry it with no symptoms)

edit: snorvich, there is some info spreading around the internet that a single strain of ich will die out if left in an aquarium with fish in it for over a year... I don't understand why that is spreading. I haven't read any research that would confirm that, and it's biology certainly wouldn't suggest that would be the case.

 

[rona74]

ty for answering
there is alot of sense with ur logic mishari
i have a feeling that u r right
so do you think in other words that there is no way to tell if a tank with fish is ich free or not
no matter how long the fish have no simptum and no matter how long no new fish or anythig else added to the tank
so statment like "my tank is ich free" is only a feeling and nothing more

 

[Dealseer]

For the newly added fish; is it 100% certain they were ich free?

 

[Mishri]

ty for answering
there is alot of sense with ur logic mishari
i have a feeling that u r right
so do you think in other words that there is no way to tell if a tank with fish is ich free or not
no matter how long the fish have no simptum and no matter how long no new fish or anythig else added to the tank
so statment like "my tank is ich free" is only a feeling and nothing more

Pretty much. There are some ways to be pretty sure your tank is ich free.. TTM with hypo salinity and CP I think would take care of any possible ich, and bleach/soak in fresh water/dry all rocks/sand before it enters the tank. Maybe once my tampa bay live rock has been fallow for 2 years I can introduce it

There are a lot of people on these forums who know ich is in their tank and they live with it... for now..

I'm still deciding on how to QT for my 300 gallon.. Right now my thinking is 10 gallon tanks to do TTM and prazi pro.. just picked up 3 of them.. I'll also have CP on hand if anything shows signs of velvet/urinoma. but I think i'll skip hypo.

 

[rona74]

im very new to this hobby
i am fighting ich now and its not such a plasure
i have read and learn alot lately
i am in a proces of ttm all my fish and i will do it by the book no shortcuts
i hope it will work out
but i have bad feeling that tangs are not playing by the rules
and there is not enogh knowlage about ich
hope i am wrong about that and ttm works the same for evey fish and that is highly effctive as some expets say it is
well i will probably will know soon
thank you

 

[ThRoewer]

There are a bunch of issues with "ich" and the information floating around in forums.
Even the scientific research papers have to be taken with a grain of salt (or maybe better with a full pound) as many just use one specific isolate (strain). But the observed differences between known and researched strains can be quite significant. And there are for sure more "strains" out there than what is known to science.
I would only take those findings as hard facts that have been observed in multiple studies and on multiple strains. One off observations like for example the 72 days excystment period have no significant validity beyond pointing out that there is a possibility for deviation from the normal observed life cycle.
Staying with the 72 days observation: this observation does by no means indicate that 72 days are the maximal possible excystment period but rather the opposite - it rather shows that ich can stay encysted for at least 72. It actually indicates that there may be strains that can be holding out even longer.

Immunity is another muddled field. There are enough studies published that show that full immunity against nearly every parasite can be achieved under the right conditions. The real issue for an aquarists is to know if a fish is fully or just partially immune. That is the reason why it is a risky and uncertain approach. Another issue is that immunity can be compromised by stress and that many fish are having rather high stress levels in an aquarium environment.

In general it is better to consult primary sources (scientific research papers) than listening to the half facts and outright rumors found on forums and hobbyists sites.

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