"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins
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markcasto
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I suspected that it may be the spray he used to stick the lino down but I tested the water and the ammonia level was off the scale the water stinks too. Last night I tested it and the ammonia was zero this morning at 9am the fish were fine then at 3pm when he had finished they were all dead and the ammonia level was sky high.
I pulled the rock out and smelled it to see if something inside had died it was really whiffy. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think it was the guy laying the floor he was careful around the tank. Sigh oh well at least my regal tangs are still ok in my QT tank. I hate it when my fish die I really loved those fish and I feel bad about it.
Just goes to show how important it is to keep a regular check on your stock those fish died in less then 4 hours because I had to wait outside while the floor was done. In fact only one fish survived in there and that was my cleaner wrasse that had gone over the glass to the other side and avoided the ammonia peek.
Well when this is all over and the fish are back in my main tank I am going to be very vigilant about checking my stock each day.
I pulled the rock out and smelled it to see if something inside had died it was really whiffy. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think it was the guy laying the floor he was careful around the tank. Sigh oh well at least my regal tangs are still ok in my QT tank. I hate it when my fish die I really loved those fish and I feel bad about it.
Just goes to show how important it is to keep a regular check on your stock those fish died in less then 4 hours because I had to wait outside while the floor was done. In fact only one fish survived in there and that was my cleaner wrasse that had gone over the glass to the other side and avoided the ammonia peek.
Well when this is all over and the fish are back in my main tank I am going to be very vigilant about checking my stock each day.
markcasto
New member
Only 17 days to go now then the fish can go back home at last.No itch on any of the QT tank fish for 4 weeks looking good.I am going to start from scratch with the refugium dont know what died in there but it sure does stink.
Typical isnt it take my eyes of the refugium for 1 morning and the fish die.Really sad about losing those fish I loved my little madarin and the yellow tang dam those emperor cardinals where nice fish to.Well at least the god dam whitespot is dead now.
Typical isnt it take my eyes of the refugium for 1 morning and the fish die.Really sad about losing those fish I loved my little madarin and the yellow tang dam those emperor cardinals where nice fish to.Well at least the god dam whitespot is dead now.
tjay
Premium Member
All of mine that were exposed are staying in the tank for the duration. I would fear moving one out before the end of the full treatment.
My luck it would have ich on it that was not visible and I would end up contaminating the whole group again.
I have my calculations for water changes set to go. I will need to do 13 every 12 hours to get to 1.024. Then I am going to do a slow acclimate unto the main tank.
Lee should there be a fresh water dip in the middle of the transfer?
I sure would hate to put them trough that if it is not needed. The move is going to be stressful enough. I just hope the little copper band does not have such a feast on the feather dusters that it stops eating the prepared food we feed.
My luck it would have ich on it that was not visible and I would end up contaminating the whole group again.
I have my calculations for water changes set to go. I will need to do 13 every 12 hours to get to 1.024. Then I am going to do a slow acclimate unto the main tank.
Lee should there be a fresh water dip in the middle of the transfer?
I sure would hate to put them trough that if it is not needed. The move is going to be stressful enough. I just hope the little copper band does not have such a feast on the feather dusters that it stops eating the prepared food we feed.
Triggerfish
Active member
leebca said:
they are in the same tank..that's the issue with treating more than 1 fish in the same system..each fish could host at different times and some not at all.
the maroon has been clean(visibly) for about 6 weeks now. 2 in main and going on 4 in QT. my angel,,clean for 15 days,,puffer and niger and 1 damsel have 1 spot each..so they will need to remain for another 6 weeks after the last spot is noticed.
the outbreak in the QT seems to be so incredibly small, i mean 3 spots visible,,suprisingly, the angel who was like a 'magnet' b/f has not been infected..
in fact,the only reason i took the maroon out was so i could keep the main tank fallow..except the LMB..still have my fingers crossed on that decision.
i am going to stick with the 6 weeks ich free theory, this fish will be 8 weeks.
my quarantining practice for new arrivals is still being researched,,however i believe they will go right into hypo for 3 weeks and if no ich is noticed during that time will be ready for main tank after 4 weeks..
if i was not going to use hypo treatment i would quart for 6 weeks.
ya tjay,,the dusters are out in full force..i know my angel will be feasting non stop.
picked up a couple more corals today..damn good deal that even a broke hobbyist couldn't pass up..
9 headed candycane and humungous gsp rock for $30
tjay
Premium Member
I am wondering about the later additions.
Should they be treated with Hypo if there are no signs of ich?
My feelings was no, but I like hearing all the opinions. I had planned to keep the water changes going from my main to the QT weekly but that would not create hypo.
I don't think I will ever do hypo again unless a new arrival develops ich in the QT. Other wise they just get a 4 - 6 week get to know me visit in the QT kept cycling by the changes from the main.
Is this a sound decision or would it be better to do prophylactic treatment for new arrivals?
Should they be treated with Hypo if there are no signs of ich?
My feelings was no, but I like hearing all the opinions. I had planned to keep the water changes going from my main to the QT weekly but that would not create hypo.
I don't think I will ever do hypo again unless a new arrival develops ich in the QT. Other wise they just get a 4 - 6 week get to know me visit in the QT kept cycling by the changes from the main.
Is this a sound decision or would it be better to do prophylactic treatment for new arrivals?
Triggerfish
Active member
no you would not have to do hypo for new arrivals that 'appear' to be ich free.,,you would just have to quarantine for a FULL 6 weeks. for a complete added safety cushion, you could hypo for 6 weeks..basically, from the readings, you then can be pretty certain of not introducing the parasite.
i am going to go with the minimum hypo requirement for new arrivals of 3 weeks as mentioned here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm
if i develop an issue down the road i will increase it to 6 weeks.
i am going to go with the minimum hypo requirement for new arrivals of 3 weeks as mentioned here: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm
if i develop an issue down the road i will increase it to 6 weeks.
markcasto
New member
Yes a full 6 week QT for new arrivals sounds like a good safe plan.I am going to pick up 2 banggai cardinals next week to replace my losses and I will give them a fresh water dip and 6 weeks QT before they go to the main tank.Dont think I will use hypo treatment unless I see any infection during that time though.
Triggerfish,
Just because you can't 'see' the Marine Ich, doesn't mean the fish isn't infected with it. Marine Ich's favorite hiding place is in the gills.
If the maroon (or any fish) doesn't show signs of Marine Ich but is in a tank where it is, or could be, the fish must continue its treatment through to the end. Otherwise, you defeat the purpose of the whole process.
Just because you can't 'see' the Marine Ich, doesn't mean the fish isn't infected with it. Marine Ich's favorite hiding place is in the gills.
If the maroon (or any fish) doesn't show signs of Marine Ich but is in a tank where it is, or could be, the fish must continue its treatment through to the end. Otherwise, you defeat the purpose of the whole process.
Triggerfish et al,
I would discourage the invention of new procedures and the following of old, proven wrong procedures.
For instance, look at the article that Triggerfish referenced for doing a hypo for 3 weeks. The author says that a salinity of 16ppt is where a hypo treatment belongs, but he recommends a 14ppt. Where else have you found that 16ppt was the target salinity?
Now, let's take the case of a new fish. You don't know if it has Marine Ich or not. It was proposed to put it into quarantine and treat with hyposalinity for 3 weeks. Does this really make sense?
For the fish you are now treating with hyposalinty, how long are you keeping them in the treatment? You should be keeping them in the treatment until the last spot is seen, then at least 4 more weeks. THEN, after treatment, you should keep them in quarantine another month for observation to verify they are clean of MI and your treatment was successful. If this is true, then why would 3 weeks in hypo be sufficient?
Next, the hyposalinity treatment in quarantine just attacks a single microbe. You have to get real here. The reason for quarantine isn't just for Marine Ich, it is for the dozens of other afflictions that your fish could have.
That is why quarantine should last no less than 6 weeks. Don't lose sight of the purpose of the quarantine --- it isn't just for Marine Ich. AND, don't mix quarantine with treatment. They each have their own guidelines.
Everyone who would like to go through what you're going through again, when your display is infected with MI because you cut short the quarantine time, please raise your hand! :wave:
I would discourage the invention of new procedures and the following of old, proven wrong procedures.
For instance, look at the article that Triggerfish referenced for doing a hypo for 3 weeks. The author says that a salinity of 16ppt is where a hypo treatment belongs, but he recommends a 14ppt. Where else have you found that 16ppt was the target salinity?
Now, let's take the case of a new fish. You don't know if it has Marine Ich or not. It was proposed to put it into quarantine and treat with hyposalinity for 3 weeks. Does this really make sense?
For the fish you are now treating with hyposalinty, how long are you keeping them in the treatment? You should be keeping them in the treatment until the last spot is seen, then at least 4 more weeks. THEN, after treatment, you should keep them in quarantine another month for observation to verify they are clean of MI and your treatment was successful. If this is true, then why would 3 weeks in hypo be sufficient?
Next, the hyposalinity treatment in quarantine just attacks a single microbe. You have to get real here. The reason for quarantine isn't just for Marine Ich, it is for the dozens of other afflictions that your fish could have.
That is why quarantine should last no less than 6 weeks. Don't lose sight of the purpose of the quarantine --- it isn't just for Marine Ich. AND, don't mix quarantine with treatment. They each have their own guidelines.
Everyone who would like to go through what you're going through again, when your display is infected with MI because you cut short the quarantine time, please raise your hand! :wave:
Last edited:
Triggerfish
Active member
leebca said:
i have heard about gill infections.
it's very possible that any length of quarantine <1 year will not be adequate as the gills could just keep being infested going unnoticed. i would think that as the population increases the fish would have increased difficulty. however, there is no way to be sure, or would there be if it continues to be a low level infection not resulting in death?
unless you quarantine separately for 1 year so that the c.irritan cell lines will age and die,,you cannot be sure. (Burgess and Mathews 1994).
yes,,that article has some conflicting info..
i am going to go by visibility and maintain in quarantine for "at least 4 weeks after the dissapearance of the last cyst."
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html
hopefully this article is not outdated yet...
that will be 5 weeks in quarantine..if it's in the gills then even 30 weeks may not be long enough. I would like to keep this reasonable while still adhering to written documentation.
This is a "quest' and still may not be fullfilled during the 1st attempt.. the tank was "visibly ich free" for 1.8 years prior to this.
no quarantine practice..just stupid luck.
Triggerfish
Active member
leebca said:
i have yet to come across documentation that suggests 8 weeks quarantine. the most i have seen is 6 weeks.. and 4 the minimum.
again going by the lifecycle at tropical temps and SG it appears that 10-39 days would be the timeframe, with 17 days being peak.
if it's there, you should see something..if it's in the gills and not visible, then anything <1 year will not matter anyway.
the parasite strain could have gone through as many as 4 lifecycles within that 6 weeks quarantine time. again,,each one having gone unnoticed. if the quarantined specimen continues to behave normally as when 1st introduced,,i cannot assume that the possible gill infestation is getting worse.
what would another 2 weeks really accomplish here? would the fish suddenly be stricken down on the 5th or 6th attack,,possibly but i will need to witness that myself as i have not seen data that supports such specific findings.
if the parasite is harboring in the gills during each infestation then you cannot be certain of not introducing it unless you quarantine for 1 year minimum.
tjay
Premium Member
The discussion is getting interesting. I read tons of articles for a while trying to get a handle on all this. What I found was the more I read the more confused I got.
I backed away from it for a couple days, then took an inventory of the resources I had read. Then using my own sense of what was valid or not ( just a gut call) I decided on the five part series and the Steve Pro series on QT tanks. There were articles that conflicted with those writings but those are the two that I chose to formulate my plan.
When it is all said and done, my tank will have been fallow for 7 weeks and the fish in low salinity for 5 weeks 1 week stabilizing the tank, one week raising the salinity back to normal levels.
Will that formula result in an "ich free tank" well I suppose we will know in a month or so, although I could see this discussion going for much longer especially if one of us has an outbreak in the Main again.
The whole quest thread should prove to be a valuable one over time if it has not already.
I backed away from it for a couple days, then took an inventory of the resources I had read. Then using my own sense of what was valid or not ( just a gut call) I decided on the five part series and the Steve Pro series on QT tanks. There were articles that conflicted with those writings but those are the two that I chose to formulate my plan.
When it is all said and done, my tank will have been fallow for 7 weeks and the fish in low salinity for 5 weeks 1 week stabilizing the tank, one week raising the salinity back to normal levels.
Will that formula result in an "ich free tank" well I suppose we will know in a month or so, although I could see this discussion going for much longer especially if one of us has an outbreak in the Main again.
The whole quest thread should prove to be a valuable one over time if it has not already.
Triggerfish
Active member
it appears, as Lee illustrated, that at least the 3rd part of that series(if we're talking about the same one) regarding hypo treatment procedures is outdated.
i feel once you have an understanding of what the 'normal' parameters are regarding the parasite you can equate them to what quarantine practice you should follow. and yes, if it doesn't work out you will need to take note and make adjustements..i have no problem doing that. i will document everything we all did and summarize the data. if there is an issue we can go back and annalyze.
keep in mind, my tank is not completely fallow- my LMB is in there hopefully immune to the pathogen. so if i have to start over that will be the primary issue to look at. but,,it may have been the quarantine practice as the cause, it's still experimental and i am just going to go by how things appear and tweak along the way if need be until i have a consistant ich free tank..this thread could go on for another 40 yrs.
however,,as each procedure fails,,every step that was taken will be analyzed and adjusted as need be. and if i end up having to quarantine for a year then that is what i will proceed to do..
but am starting at ... still to be determined.
i feel once you have an understanding of what the 'normal' parameters are regarding the parasite you can equate them to what quarantine practice you should follow. and yes, if it doesn't work out you will need to take note and make adjustements..i have no problem doing that. i will document everything we all did and summarize the data. if there is an issue we can go back and annalyze.
keep in mind, my tank is not completely fallow- my LMB is in there hopefully immune to the pathogen. so if i have to start over that will be the primary issue to look at. but,,it may have been the quarantine practice as the cause, it's still experimental and i am just going to go by how things appear and tweak along the way if need be until i have a consistant ich free tank..this thread could go on for another 40 yrs.
however,,as each procedure fails,,every step that was taken will be analyzed and adjusted as need be. and if i end up having to quarantine for a year then that is what i will proceed to do..
but am starting at ... still to be determined.
Triggerfish
Active member
Quarantining New Livestock: REVAMPED
Quarantining New Livestock: REVAMPED
Ok,,it appears that Lee has come up with a solid minimum quarantine time frame.
here is how I look at it based on normal lifecycle data taking the later time stage during each part of the cycle.
1. 7 days - you buy what appears to be a clean fish, however ich could be in the gills going unnoticed - or a small spot may be missed.
2. 2 days - ich free swims
3. 28 days - encystment - hopefully hypo took care of most of these, but there is no guarantee.
4. 2 days - Free swim
5. 10 days - monitor for the visible sign of the parasite - again in gills we have no way of knowing if fish continues to behave normally.
6. 7 days - the extra added time to watch for signs of parasite or change in fish behavior..it's a few extra days in case any part(s) of the lifecycle stages were extended.
TOTAL: 56 DAYS
Summary:
6 weeks - Hypo new livestock
1 week - raise sg to main tank levels
1 week - continue to monitor
8 weeks quarantine new livestock
Quarantining New Livestock: REVAMPED
leebca said:
Ok,,it appears that Lee has come up with a solid minimum quarantine time frame.
here is how I look at it based on normal lifecycle data taking the later time stage during each part of the cycle.
1. 7 days - you buy what appears to be a clean fish, however ich could be in the gills going unnoticed - or a small spot may be missed.
2. 2 days - ich free swims
3. 28 days - encystment - hopefully hypo took care of most of these, but there is no guarantee.
4. 2 days - Free swim
5. 10 days - monitor for the visible sign of the parasite - again in gills we have no way of knowing if fish continues to behave normally.
6. 7 days - the extra added time to watch for signs of parasite or change in fish behavior..it's a few extra days in case any part(s) of the lifecycle stages were extended.
TOTAL: 56 DAYS
Summary:
6 weeks - Hypo new livestock
1 week - raise sg to main tank levels
1 week - continue to monitor
8 weeks quarantine new livestock
You shouldn't put a time limit on each stage. Each stage has a range. We figure on the high end of each range. That is being conservative, and after 35 years of success at it, I'd say conservative is successful.
1. A tomite can live in the flesh or gill without becoming a trophont for up to 10 days;
2. The trophont falls off OR moves to a new location on the fish (the latter no likely, but has been known to happen).
3. Trophont encysts. In warm water, up to 14 days.
4. Tomites are released and must find host within 2 days.
5. Infected fish can only have one tomite which turns into a trophont which goes unnoticed by the aquarist. The cycle could start over again even without the aquarist aware of there having been a cycle. Because of this, the times are extended.
Until the number of tomites produced infect the fish so that it becomes obvious to the aquarist, several weeks could go by.
For 35 years this is how I've done it successfully:
1. FW dip in Methylene Blue all new fish;
2. Quarantine for 6 weeks. No signs of a problem, into the display; if a problem, go on to 3.
3. Cure diseased fish. IF it is MI, then choose hypo or copper. If hypo go on to 4. If copper go on to 5. If not MI go to 6.
4. Lower salinity to between 11 and 12ppt. When last spot is gone, count 4 weeks. Raise salinity slowly over a 1 week period. Hold fish in quarantine for at least one more month to verify it is healthy, then into the display.
5. If treating by copper, treat per medication recommendations. After treatment, hold fish in quarantine for at least one more month to verify it is healthy, then into the display.
6. After fish is cured, hold fish for at least one month in quarantine to verify it is cured and healthy, then into display.
You'll find that most of the above in Steven Pro's article, which I've been doing since the late 60's.
1. A tomite can live in the flesh or gill without becoming a trophont for up to 10 days;
2. The trophont falls off OR moves to a new location on the fish (the latter no likely, but has been known to happen).
3. Trophont encysts. In warm water, up to 14 days.
4. Tomites are released and must find host within 2 days.
5. Infected fish can only have one tomite which turns into a trophont which goes unnoticed by the aquarist. The cycle could start over again even without the aquarist aware of there having been a cycle. Because of this, the times are extended.
Until the number of tomites produced infect the fish so that it becomes obvious to the aquarist, several weeks could go by.
For 35 years this is how I've done it successfully:
1. FW dip in Methylene Blue all new fish;
2. Quarantine for 6 weeks. No signs of a problem, into the display; if a problem, go on to 3.
3. Cure diseased fish. IF it is MI, then choose hypo or copper. If hypo go on to 4. If copper go on to 5. If not MI go to 6.
4. Lower salinity to between 11 and 12ppt. When last spot is gone, count 4 weeks. Raise salinity slowly over a 1 week period. Hold fish in quarantine for at least one more month to verify it is healthy, then into the display.
5. If treating by copper, treat per medication recommendations. After treatment, hold fish in quarantine for at least one more month to verify it is healthy, then into the display.
6. After fish is cured, hold fish for at least one month in quarantine to verify it is cured and healthy, then into display.
You'll find that most of the above in Steven Pro's article, which I've been doing since the late 60's.
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