"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[cduran02]

I was 8 weeks fallow. The fish are doing fine getting used to the tank again. I just got a harlequin shrimp. Its in QT right now feeding on a star fish. Since they feed only on startfish, Im going to have to set up a small QT to keep the starfish I feed the shrimp.

Trigger: Those slugs never live long in captivity because they are carnivores and feed exclusively on a specific type of sponge (cant remember which one it is). My LFS carries a lot of those slugs, though I wish people would stop buying them, they are basically being condemed to death and the LFS nor the customers are aware of this.

 

[Triggerfish]

hmmm,,everthing i came across mentioned they are herbivorous,,consuming all types of algae.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_hare
http://www.thejump.net/id/sea-hare.htm

 

[cduran02]

Ah....though it was a Nudibranch that you had, LFS usually carry those purple slugs with the orange tentacles.

Though the majority of slugs are carnivores, and a lot of sellers either dont know or just lie to make a buck. The best place for acurate slug info is at http://www.seaslugforum.net/.

 

[cduran02]

Here's a little something for those who want to treat with copper. Its an email response to a question I asked from Seachem's tech support for Cupramine:

"Our minimal recommended dosage is 14 days. You can always treat for
longer periods.

Ich has three main stages to its life cycle. Only one of these
stages leave them vulnerable enough for medication to kill them. The
stage you see are called trophonts. Your not actually seeing them,
they burrow into the skin of the fish. What you are seeing is almost
like a pimple on the fish, it is a pus filled sac attempting to
remove the parasite from the body. At this time they have already
been infected with ich for several days. The trophonts then fall off
the fish and settle to the bottom of the tank, where they attach and
begin cell division. This stage is called the tomont. The tomont
eventually ruptures releasing hundreds of free swimmers. The free
swimmers are called tomites. This is the only stage where you can
kill them. The tomites are relatively easy to kill with medications,
but the trophonts are buried in the fish's flesh and actually
protected to some extent by the fish's own mucous secretions, while
the tomonts are protected by their own hard shell. The tomites swim
around the tank looking for a fish to feed on. If they don't find
one they will die in about 48-72 hours. The complete life cycle can
take anywhere from 16-21 days depending on temperature.

Best Regards,
Seachem Tech Support~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc. www.seachem.com 888-SEACHEM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ch"

 

[markcasto]

I have set up a small tank for QT my new corals and inverts as well, I don't want any more unwanted arrival in my maintank.

Seeing how things appear in the main tank at a later date like the bubble algae it would be a good idea to QT everthing for at least 4 weeks just to be sure you dont let something small and devious amongest the others.

Trigger-this bta what is that an anemone that is on the move?If so I have the same thing happening to my xenia colony my anemone keeps moving around and my xenia have shriveled up but since he moved past them they have come out again.

 

[tjay]

Hyposalinity if I understand it prevents tomonts from forming and releasing the free swimmers.
So once the trophants fall off the fish to the bottom they are doomed.

In the main tank free swimmers die because there is no host.

So to say the "only" stage you can kill them is as free swimmers is one I think many would debate.
It is indeed the stage that copper deals with them

 

[leebca]

Astute observations tjay. Too often the info on Marine Ich is 'simplified' or edited. Then you hear from there it is this; then you hear from another place it is this. It's the Land of Confusion.

The hypo treatment does indeed affect the tomont, preventing it from releasing the tomites.

Re the life cycle of 16-21 days. Not so. The tomont stage (cyst) has been found to 'live' up to 6 weeks without rupturing and releasing the tomites. That is why I recommend the 8-week (min) leaving the tank go fallow. This is why after the treatment, the fish needs to be held and observed for at least a month AFTER the hobbyist thinks the fish is cured.

Seachem isn't wrong. They are just quoting averages and generalities. But, we shouldn't use a treatment process based upon averages and generalities, in my opinion. I prefer to be sure.

 

[Triggerfish]

Trigger-this bta what is that an anemone that is on the move?If so I have the same thing happening to my xenia colony my anemone keeps moving around and my xenia have shriveled up but since he moved past them they have come out again.

yup..bubble tip. i have a large xenia colony 12-14 stocks on a large rock that it was almost right in the middle off..it anchored into a deep hole within the rock..i think he was happy there and probably wasnt going to move anytime soon.. luckily i only lost 2 of the smaller stocks..the bta is small only about 3" or so.

 

[Triggerfish]

So to say the "only" stage you can kill them is as free swimmers is one I think many would debate.
It is indeed the stage that copper deals with them

exactly,,it is the stage that "medication" would deal with them and i believe that is what he was only referencing, not hypo.


Lee nice of you to chime in..
yes, it does appear seachem is using some other studies/documentation to determine the max length of the lifecycle. which based on everything i have come across, the lifecycle appears to be at least double that.
temperature dependent? i believe the longest recorded time for tomonts to hatch in non-tropical temps was 72 days.

 

[tjay]

I am such a noob at all of this. My only salvation when ich came to visit was found in the sick fish forum right here.
I spent a week reading everything I could on the subject and found the sticky articles in that forum to be the most helpful and imho very acurate.

It is from there that as a noob I think I could hold my ground with a veteran in a debate over the ich in every tank myth.

Finding out early is a blessing, I did not have an established tank with lots of rock and corals to deal with.

 

[leebca]

The 'temperature' comment probably is a carry over from freshwater ich.

The freshwater ich (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis) is actually susceptible to death at elevated temperatures. So those familiar with the freshwater hobby and the dreaded 'true' ich tend to carry over some of what they learned about that ich to apply to Marine Ich. But, as it turns out, Marine Ich will still reproduce at temps as high as 89F. That reproduction is 'weak' by its normal standards. But, our reefs and most our fish will not do well at that temperature, while trying to fend off an attack. So raising the tank temp during the cure of Marine Ich-infested fish mostly harms the fish.

Temperature has a minor affect on the life cycle time of the Marine Ich parasite, until it reaches the extremes.

 

[cduran02]

I agree with that seachem shouldnt be basing treatment on generalities. Unfortunately I had gotten this email half way through my QT time period and I didnt want to put the fish through the copper treatment again. I just observed them for 6 weeks after the 2 week copper treatment. I saw no sign of the trophonts stage for about 6 weeks.

Of course, though the fish are back in the display after 8 weeks of QT, I still dont plan on adding any more fish for at least another 2 months.

 

[tjay]

Well it got sort of quiet over here so I thought I would report in.
The fallow tank is going nuts. I have hundreds of little critters on the back glass today. Some the size and movement characteristics of fleas, some about 1/16 of inch long that look like little worms and move in the same manner.
I am sure hoping these are copepods and not something bad.
I have something new growing on a rock I can not quite get a picture of that looks like a water melon seed with dots down two lines of its side. Hoping that to be a sponge of some kind.
I also have something that looks like aptasia except it is purple with no thick base. Does aptasia come in purple?????

The fish are doing great looking healthy and eating well. 3 weeks and counting.

Now here is a question, when it comes time to raise the salinity slowly I hear no more than .002 a day. How the heck do you do that or what are your plans to do it when your time comes????

On a bad note, I lost my second snail in two weeks in the main. What could be causing snails to die off in the fallow. Nothing to eat?

 

[leebca]

Snails can come and go. Was it a tropical snail? What did it eat? How long have you had it?

Use a formula for determining how to change your salinity. I've shared this one with others:
http://www.saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/SalinityAdjust.php

Good luck!

 

[parks]

Hello all,
I am going through the hypo treatment on my tank also. I am having a problem getting rid of the ick even in the low salinity. I have a powder blue that still continues to get ick. I change about 25% of the water every other day. I am considering changing more like 80% for a few days until the ick is gone and giving the PBT a FW dip. I have also considered using copper in conjunction with the low salinity.
Any suggestions?

 

[tjay]

They were turbo snails, I bought three about two weeks in to a tank going on 4 months old. At the time I had a brown algae problem. I switched to RO/DI water and the algae went away. I have not been feeding the snails anything specifically. I put a few mysis in there a couple times a week for the cleaner shrimp, emerald crab. I also feed marine snow for the filter feeders.
So now only one snail is left. I am wondering if the crabs are getting them. I do have a couple of hermits in there as well.

Parks hypo or copper do nothing for the ich that is already embedded in the fish. So don't rush to another treatment. Once the ich falls off the fish it will die in the hypo tank and not resurface to infect. Patience is the key, and yes if the fish is not too fragile fresh water baths can help.
Help me out pros if that is bad advice.

 

[Triggerfish]

yes,,it's quiet here midway through the fallow stage.
you're probably seeing many types of pods..they are all over my front glass and my fuge is very populated as well.

aiptasia can come in different colors i believe.

haven't looked into procedures for raising sg yet..i will check out Lee's link shortly..thx.

ya,,if you have no algae, then they could starve..but yes,,snails can just go for no apparent reasons.. if your hermits are large enough they could kill the snails for their shells.. especially the blue legs.


Parks--what are you keeping your sg at? for how long? and what are you using to measure it with?

 

[tjay]

well i tried the calculator. It made me feel real blonde
could not make sense of it

 

[leebca]

tjay,

Good advice to Parks. Just incomplete. You have to be a virtual psychic to help people. In Parks' case, you have to ask questions. What salinity is he using? How is he measuring it? How long has he ACTUALLY been doing it? . . .You see? You're trying to figure out if he's doing it right first, and just what a 'few days' means to Parks. Once you're sure he's doing it right AND has given it some time, then you can come in with the patience answer.

Keep on helping. You may get kicked now and then and thanked less than 20% of the time, but you are helping and that counts.
--------

Turbos will eat other (plant) foods, too. Be sure to feed your tank so that the algae continues to grow. OR add nori, algae or some of those algae wafers while the fish are gone. If you have too many snails for the food, then some will die off. As for hermits. Don't get me started. They should be removed from all reef aquariums, in my opinion!

 

[Triggerfish]

In Parks' case, you have to ask questions. What salinity is he using? How is he measuring it? How long has he ACTUALLY been doing it?

Parks--what are you keeping your sg at? for how long? and what are you using to measure it with?

well,,i had the appropriate questions,,,but not in the correct order..damn,,i feel i am getting close though.