Triggerfish
Active member
jk - i cannot make that meeting.
however,,i do plan on making the Raynham meeting next month.
however,,i do plan on making the Raynham meeting next month.
"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins
- Thread starter Triggerfish
- Start date
- Status
I used that Stop parasite for 5 days as it was recommended, then after the five days I added the UV to the tank. The product suggests shutting off the UV during treatment and removing carbon filters. I just bought the UV so I had it on standby for the five days of treatment.
It has been about a month now and I haven't seen anything come back since. I know it take six weeks and as I have read even maybe 8 weeks. I have been watching them closely about twice a day and they are all clean, and acting very healthy.
I also forgot to mention that the stop parasite caused a algae bloom in my tank, but it hopefully worked, another 4 weeks will tell. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.
I don't know if the product really works or if it is just some mixture that made the fish want to eat and made them stronger to fight it off (Heard of garlic being used). I have about 4 weeks clear and going, but on another note I did add UV afterwards which helps with parasites also. (Have it set on a low flow rate so it kills parasites, I have read that the longer exposure is needed to kill parasites) If you want to combat Algae you need to increase the flow. I have mine set at around 60 gal an hour.
Well our quests goes on.
Vinny..
Oh and a bit off the subject but I was at a bar last night in Newburg NY off the water front, place is called Torches. What a fantastic tank this guy has in this bar. Tangs, foxfaces, Huge lion fish etc. Must be around 1500 gal's around 30 feet long and separates the dining area from the bar. If you live in the area a great place to check out. (Beautiful woman all around me and I couldnt care less I was watching the fish.. ohhh brother what a hobby)
It has been about a month now and I haven't seen anything come back since. I know it take six weeks and as I have read even maybe 8 weeks. I have been watching them closely about twice a day and they are all clean, and acting very healthy.
I also forgot to mention that the stop parasite caused a algae bloom in my tank, but it hopefully worked, another 4 weeks will tell. I guess you have to take the good with the bad.
I don't know if the product really works or if it is just some mixture that made the fish want to eat and made them stronger to fight it off (Heard of garlic being used). I have about 4 weeks clear and going, but on another note I did add UV afterwards which helps with parasites also. (Have it set on a low flow rate so it kills parasites, I have read that the longer exposure is needed to kill parasites) If you want to combat Algae you need to increase the flow. I have mine set at around 60 gal an hour.
Well our quests goes on.
Vinny..
Oh and a bit off the subject but I was at a bar last night in Newburg NY off the water front, place is called Torches. What a fantastic tank this guy has in this bar. Tangs, foxfaces, Huge lion fish etc. Must be around 1500 gal's around 30 feet long and separates the dining area from the bar. If you live in the area a great place to check out. (Beautiful woman all around me and I couldnt care less I was watching the fish.. ohhh brother what a hobby)
guitarfish
Premium Member
Greetings from 1.009. 
I got my QT there on 11/10. Now, it's a long haul. Basically, I'm looking at bringing these fish into the display sometime after the new year.
I got my QT there on 11/10. Now, it's a long haul. Basically, I'm looking at bringing these fish into the display sometime after the new year.
tjay
Premium Member
guitarfish said:Greetings from 1.009.
Stick with it, temptation to add something to a fallow tank or cut short the treatment is a fatal mistake.
Hypo / fallow does work. What a great way to celebrate a new year
guitarfish
Premium Member
Fortunately my display has been ich-free for a year now. I have three fish in there. It's a wonderful thing !
I did a freshwater dip with Meth for 5 minutes for my needlenose who was beginning to get spots on his fins. He was scratching so much that he still has some of the marks on his face where he scratched the black off, but it is returning. My flame was darting like crazy and I dipped him also, then I treated with that stuff.
If you have the room and the tank space I agree with everyone else here.. Go fallow for the 8 weeks. I just don't have the $ and the space for a large enough sick tank. It is something I should have though about before getting into the hobby but I feel safe now and I wont introduce anything new anymore until I let it sit for 2 weeks in my sick tank to see if it is sick at all.
I am only 4 weeks clean now and I have to be sure that it is really gone, and also I added the UV so who knows what made it work??? If it worked!! soon to see... (UV could have eradicated it)
I just read and read and read..
If you have the room and the tank space I agree with everyone else here.. Go fallow for the 8 weeks. I just don't have the $ and the space for a large enough sick tank. It is something I should have though about before getting into the hobby but I feel safe now and I wont introduce anything new anymore until I let it sit for 2 weeks in my sick tank to see if it is sick at all.
I am only 4 weeks clean now and I have to be sure that it is really gone, and also I added the UV so who knows what made it work??? If it worked!! soon to see... (UV could have eradicated it)
I just read and read and read..
guyguerra
Premium Member
It is considered by most people with more experience than me that a UV will not be able to catch enough of the parasites to eradicate it, though I keep them on both of my tanks. I haven't put ANY faith in the reef safe treatments, but I'm not familiar with the one you used. I look forward to hearing how it did in another couple of weeks.
Oh and the fish tank at that bar I mentioned earlier was 6,000 gallons not 1,500. I just saw it on a web site. How would this guy treat for parasites in that thing? Wonder what kind of sick tank he has?? and do you have to get scuba certified to clean your tank..
I am sorry about being a bit off topic again.. I know how everyone hates it, but the thing was beautiful.. So forgive me in advance.
Vinny
I am sorry about being a bit off topic again.. I know how everyone hates it, but the thing was beautiful.. So forgive me in advance.
Vinny
guitarfish
Premium Member
I was at Torches restaurant a few months back, their aquarium is quite amazing. I did see ich on some of the fish however.
jimmyj7090
aka John K
I feel like I'm waiting on the results of a HIV test or someting.
10 days to go and I find out if the past 3.5 months has been a waste of time or not. I'm confident, but still tenious. Either way, my fish are almost ready to go on weight watchers so I guess the hospital exp has been OK.
Guygurrera? Can you elaborate on your exp with the fish getting sick again after 6 weeks hypo?
Where there any possible loose ends?
(swing arm tester, uncalibrated refractometer, less than daily SG checks, possible cross contamination through equipnent, Food, rock, low temps, or anything else)? Not suggesting that you were slack in your husbandry, just wondering if there could be any vairables that allowed the parasite to survive? IME it seems like everytime I try to do something just right I always miss something and realize it after the fact.
Do you have any theorys on what went wrong? Is the treatment not as %100 as we think or could there be error? Maybe 1.009 as a target allowed some slight fluxuation higher between checks or something? I chose to take a bit of a risk and made my target range 1.007-1.008 so that If it climbs a hair it would stay in the safe range (the fish showed no stress that I saw, I made all adjustments quite gradually and allowed 2 weeks acclimation to the QT before treatment began).
Again, not criticising your method at all, just curious if you have any new insight or theories about what went wrong.
If my fish get sick again I may just treat myslef with copper just to be thourogh
.
jk
10 days to go and I find out if the past 3.5 months has been a waste of time or not. I'm confident, but still tenious. Either way, my fish are almost ready to go on weight watchers so I guess the hospital exp has been OK.
Guygurrera? Can you elaborate on your exp with the fish getting sick again after 6 weeks hypo?
Where there any possible loose ends?
(swing arm tester, uncalibrated refractometer, less than daily SG checks, possible cross contamination through equipnent, Food, rock, low temps, or anything else)? Not suggesting that you were slack in your husbandry, just wondering if there could be any vairables that allowed the parasite to survive? IME it seems like everytime I try to do something just right I always miss something and realize it after the fact.
Do you have any theorys on what went wrong? Is the treatment not as %100 as we think or could there be error? Maybe 1.009 as a target allowed some slight fluxuation higher between checks or something? I chose to take a bit of a risk and made my target range 1.007-1.008 so that If it climbs a hair it would stay in the safe range (the fish showed no stress that I saw, I made all adjustments quite gradually and allowed 2 weeks acclimation to the QT before treatment began).
Again, not criticising your method at all, just curious if you have any new insight or theories about what went wrong.
If my fish get sick again I may just treat myslef with copper just to be thourogh
. jk
jimmyj7090
aka John K
Oh yea, triggerfish,
Not sure on the next mtg, I'll try to make it wourk.
jk
Not sure on the next mtg, I'll try to make it wourk.
jk
jeffbrig
Premium Member
Problems from hypo?
Problems from hypo?
Clowns are doing well, but the achilles has been struggling lately. On friday we noticed he was listing to one side and breathing more rapidly than normal, and saturday we noticed some visible swelling in the abdomen. Whether the swim bladder is the cause of the swelling, or another organ (kidneys?) is preventing proper use of the swim bladder, I can't tell.
He is still eating (albeit less than normal), and still hanging in there. We have added epsom salts to the water (in case of intestinal blockage/constipation), Maracyn as a broad spectrum antibiotic, and we are continuing to raise the salinity out of hypo at a controlled rate. I added a few bubblers to increase the oxygen saturation of the water, to make his breathing easier. Hopefully he will be able to pull through.
I'm pretty sure he's ich-free now, since he continues to be clean even with this latest stress. He spent 6 weeks in hypo before we started raising the salinity, currently at 1.017.
I fear that all of this stems from the degraded water quality we experienced following hurricane Wilma (since corrected). Either than, or some lingering effect of the extended period in hyposalinity.
Cross your fingers for me, hopefully he'll pull through.
Problems from hypo?
Clowns are doing well, but the achilles has been struggling lately. On friday we noticed he was listing to one side and breathing more rapidly than normal, and saturday we noticed some visible swelling in the abdomen. Whether the swim bladder is the cause of the swelling, or another organ (kidneys?) is preventing proper use of the swim bladder, I can't tell.
He is still eating (albeit less than normal), and still hanging in there. We have added epsom salts to the water (in case of intestinal blockage/constipation), Maracyn as a broad spectrum antibiotic, and we are continuing to raise the salinity out of hypo at a controlled rate. I added a few bubblers to increase the oxygen saturation of the water, to make his breathing easier. Hopefully he will be able to pull through.
I'm pretty sure he's ich-free now, since he continues to be clean even with this latest stress. He spent 6 weeks in hypo before we started raising the salinity, currently at 1.017.
I fear that all of this stems from the degraded water quality we experienced following hurricane Wilma (since corrected). Either than, or some lingering effect of the extended period in hyposalinity.
Cross your fingers for me, hopefully he'll pull through.
guyguerra
Premium Member
Hi Jimmy.
First, I take no offense or feel criticized for your questions. This type of communication is harder than typical conversations and can lead to misunderstandings. Secondly, I am a rookie, though I've studied everything I can and feel I have been obsessive about my aquarium, I am learning things everyday. I have made many mistakes so far, that's why I say "Two Hard years" for experience.
I will try to qualify my statement. To do that, I went back and read my old threads to help refresh my inadequate memory. Here's what I found. As I mentioned, I used Cupramine at first, but was sold a different test kit. I thought my levels were correct, which they were not. It didn't work and after six weeks I still had Ich. I did not see the Ich until I removed the Cupramine, which IMO suggests I had enough to keep it at bay. So I switched to hypo at 11ppt. I knew the importance of accurate readings since the salinity was so low, so I bought a refractometer. There were several people that said 11 ppt was too low and I should use 13ppt, but there was a gentleman named Lee on this site that advised 11ppt, and I developed a lot of respect for him (he has many years of experience). I also called the Oklahoma Aquarium, which has a published article on how they use hypo to treat Ich. Here is the link to that article: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2004/short.htm .The Biologist there was very friendly and gave me lots of advice. He convinced me that 11 ppt was good. I was into it for three weeks and all the fish looked good, but on the fourth week it came back with a vengeance. I continued on for 5 more weeks, but the Ich would not stop. I was using my refractometer at least once, if not twice daily to check the salinity. The fact that Ich came back after the first Cupramine treatment was stopped (which was flawed due to an incorrect test kit), and came back after 3 good weeks of hypo forms my basis of thinking that raising salinity and removing all copper so that if Ich was barely present it would have a conducive set up to let it thrive again. This could be over kill, but in the "Quest for an Ich free Tank", this doesn't seem to be unreasonable to me. So the short answer to your question is that I believe I was diligent in my management of treatments.
As to a theory of what went wrong, I have read that there are strains that have adapted to low salinity. If you go to Advanced Aquarist march issue of 2004 and read the article News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans:
Part Five of Five you will learn a lot about these strains. heres the link: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/index/ .
So my thought of removing all treatments when finished and watching the fish for two more weeks is my own, and not scientific, and some situations might make this prohibitive. But if I treated a fish for the time it takes, then popped it in the display, only to see Ich come back, it would take more than treating myself with copper to get over it. That's what single malt Scotch's are for.
First, I take no offense or feel criticized for your questions. This type of communication is harder than typical conversations and can lead to misunderstandings. Secondly, I am a rookie, though I've studied everything I can and feel I have been obsessive about my aquarium, I am learning things everyday. I have made many mistakes so far, that's why I say "Two Hard years" for experience.
I will try to qualify my statement. To do that, I went back and read my old threads to help refresh my inadequate memory. Here's what I found. As I mentioned, I used Cupramine at first, but was sold a different test kit. I thought my levels were correct, which they were not. It didn't work and after six weeks I still had Ich. I did not see the Ich until I removed the Cupramine, which IMO suggests I had enough to keep it at bay. So I switched to hypo at 11ppt. I knew the importance of accurate readings since the salinity was so low, so I bought a refractometer. There were several people that said 11 ppt was too low and I should use 13ppt, but there was a gentleman named Lee on this site that advised 11ppt, and I developed a lot of respect for him (he has many years of experience). I also called the Oklahoma Aquarium, which has a published article on how they use hypo to treat Ich. Here is the link to that article: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2004/short.htm .The Biologist there was very friendly and gave me lots of advice. He convinced me that 11 ppt was good. I was into it for three weeks and all the fish looked good, but on the fourth week it came back with a vengeance. I continued on for 5 more weeks, but the Ich would not stop. I was using my refractometer at least once, if not twice daily to check the salinity. The fact that Ich came back after the first Cupramine treatment was stopped (which was flawed due to an incorrect test kit), and came back after 3 good weeks of hypo forms my basis of thinking that raising salinity and removing all copper so that if Ich was barely present it would have a conducive set up to let it thrive again. This could be over kill, but in the "Quest for an Ich free Tank", this doesn't seem to be unreasonable to me. So the short answer to your question is that I believe I was diligent in my management of treatments.
As to a theory of what went wrong, I have read that there are strains that have adapted to low salinity. If you go to Advanced Aquarist march issue of 2004 and read the article News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans:
Part Five of Five you will learn a lot about these strains. heres the link: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/index/ .
So my thought of removing all treatments when finished and watching the fish for two more weeks is my own, and not scientific, and some situations might make this prohibitive. But if I treated a fish for the time it takes, then popped it in the display, only to see Ich come back, it would take more than treating myself with copper to get over it. That's what single malt Scotch's are for.
guitarfish
Premium Member
Guy - you have had quite a battle on your hands my friend! I had heard of the varients of crypto that are resisitent to hypo, but last time I checked, it was never seen in captivity (yet). So you still have your fish in QT now?
Guy has quite a battle on his hands it sounds like..
I have a question related to my quest for a ICH free tank. I posted earlier about using one of the "reef safe methods" and added a UV to my system. I have since seen all the spots disappear and everyone is healthy. I am going on week four to week 5 of not seeing any spots on my fish. (Have a magnifying glass next to the tank) Now after 2 months pass and I still don't see spots is it eradicated? I guess the question I am looking for is can these darn ICH spots be held at bay for long periods of time (Year so to say) and then just resurface when the conditions permit, ie stressed fish, poor water conditions? How undetectable can ICH be in minor quantities?
I have read that some believe that ICH will always exist but that I do not believe. I have read far to much research which shows that once you kill it, it will be gone as long as you don't introduce it again.
I have read through a bunch of posts and articles but I haven't seen these kind of questions addressed. Like how long can it appear to be gone but then have ICH resurface..
What a hobby.
I have a question related to my quest for a ICH free tank. I posted earlier about using one of the "reef safe methods" and added a UV to my system. I have since seen all the spots disappear and everyone is healthy. I am going on week four to week 5 of not seeing any spots on my fish. (Have a magnifying glass next to the tank) Now after 2 months pass and I still don't see spots is it eradicated? I guess the question I am looking for is can these darn ICH spots be held at bay for long periods of time (Year so to say) and then just resurface when the conditions permit, ie stressed fish, poor water conditions? How undetectable can ICH be in minor quantities?
I have read that some believe that ICH will always exist but that I do not believe. I have read far to much research which shows that once you kill it, it will be gone as long as you don't introduce it again.
I have read through a bunch of posts and articles but I haven't seen these kind of questions addressed. Like how long can it appear to be gone but then have ICH resurface..
What a hobby.
guitarfish
Premium Member
What I do know is that ich is an obligate parasite which means it needs a host (fish) to reproduce. It falls off the fish, reproduces, then out the little bas-tads come by the hundred. Now, here's the thing - if there's no fish, they will die - they can't survive otherwise. Now, if the tank is at hyposalinity, they should die too.
This much I know.
What I don't know is, when it falls off the fish and attaches to something (rock, sand, etc.), can it stay "dormant" for a long time? Supposedly some have observed this to happen. I don't know for sure. Personally, I think if it does happen, it is unusual/rare.
This much I know.
What I don't know is, when it falls off the fish and attaches to something (rock, sand, etc.), can it stay "dormant" for a long time? Supposedly some have observed this to happen. I don't know for sure. Personally, I think if it does happen, it is unusual/rare.
jimmyj7090
aka John K
Guy,
a totally novice question in response (and thanks for the reply)
I don't know the PPT vs sg conversiton / relationship. Is 11 PPT = to 1.011? What were you going for on the refractometer, 1.009 or 1.011? My understanding was that the SG needs to be 1.009 or less to make hypo work. Am I confused on terms or is it possible that your SG wasn't low enough to prevent some survival for the Ick? I went with 1.007-1.008, could this make a diffrence?
just trying to clarify as I'm a bit of a novice.
thanks again
jk
a totally novice question in response (and thanks for the reply)
I don't know the PPT vs sg conversiton / relationship. Is 11 PPT = to 1.011? What were you going for on the refractometer, 1.009 or 1.011? My understanding was that the SG needs to be 1.009 or less to make hypo work. Am I confused on terms or is it possible that your SG wasn't low enough to prevent some survival for the Ick? I went with 1.007-1.008, could this make a diffrence?
just trying to clarify as I'm a bit of a novice.
thanks again
jk
guyguerra
Premium Member
I agree with guitarfish, if theres no host, it has to die. They say 8 weeks of a fallow tank does it, so I would assume for most cases this is the time frame. Problems that do occur is when fish are "immune" to it or can harbor the parasite in it's gills for a period of time without showing symptoms, only to show up when something stresses the tank. If I had to worry about that I'd get out of the hobby.
As to my Ich battle, that occurred last January and my fish have been Ich free since June. Once I finished treating them I moved them into the 50 gallon tank that is now my QT. I kept them there for two months while setting up my 230. They remained Ich free and have now gone to "heaven" (our term for the 230 gallon tank). The second batch of fish I bought in September showed no signs of Ich, and got to go to "heaven" in four weeks. The third batch of fish showed Ich the day after I bought them, so they have to live in the QT for about another 5 weeks. Then I'll do at least one week in the QT after the copper is removed (preferably two weeks, but there is another group of fish waiting for me at the LFS right now) .
As to my Ich battle, that occurred last January and my fish have been Ich free since June. Once I finished treating them I moved them into the 50 gallon tank that is now my QT. I kept them there for two months while setting up my 230. They remained Ich free and have now gone to "heaven" (our term for the 230 gallon tank). The second batch of fish I bought in September showed no signs of Ich, and got to go to "heaven" in four weeks. The third batch of fish showed Ich the day after I bought them, so they have to live in the QT for about another 5 weeks. Then I'll do at least one week in the QT after the copper is removed (preferably two weeks, but there is another group of fish waiting for me at the LFS right now) .
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