"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[Triggerfish]

Kick Ich Update:

skimmer turned off, carbon removed
All dosing done in pm
Dosing (11oz/Dose)10/28 - 11/4
Dosing (16oz/Dose) 11/7 - 11/11

RESULT
there was no improvement and in fact the population became more rampant. if it even looked like the population was decreasing i would have opted for a 2nd dosage treatment.
However, it just looked like an increased waste of money and i felt the tank was suffering a bit with no skimmer and carbon running.
i added a total of about 3L of this stuff in there. It did absolutely nothing that i could observe.

Summary
>Kick Ich - no effect on reducing population- it has increased
>garlic - added to all food - no effect
>cleaner gobies(2 noticed) actively pick at fish throughout day
>fish continue to feed readily and very active


The fish seem to be living with the parasite on a daily basis. The population does not look like it has increased over the span of the last 3-4 weeks..so hopefully this is as worse as it will get.
some fish are visibly more infected than others, where some rarely even display spots.
Amazingly, since this started 6 months ago,,i still have not lost a fish due directly to the parasite infestation.

Not really much more i can do here to eliminate these things from the system besides just sort of wait it out. I will take immediate action on a fish if deemed necessary. Possibly the infestation will reduce over time,, just not sure how plausible that would be.
Unfortunately, i need to obviously hold off on my massive stocking plan until conditions improve.
system currently contains 10 fish.

Action Plan
>maintain water quality
>continue adding garlic to food
>add couple more cleaner gobies
>try ginger root treatment
>possibly either fix my UV or get another and run with slow controlled flow

i'll try to snap some macro shots of fish for degree of infection reference.
are we having fun yet.......:spin2:

 

[guitarfish]

I guess it comes down to what we as aquarists are willing to accept in our tanks. Personally, I can't sit in front of my tank and enjoy it - at all - if my fish have ich. A friend of mine on the other had, has had ich at least 2-3 years now. Fish come and go. He enjoys his tank. That's what counts I guess.

If ich weren't an issue, this hobby would be so much more enjoyable, and easier.

 

[Triggerfish]

I guess it comes down to what we as aquarists are willing to accept in our tanks.

yeah,,sort of. at this point,,as long as fish are active/feeding/growing - i'm not going to mess with them unless necessary..i've put my angel through 2 hypo treatments ,3 copper treatments and 3 FW dips along with numerous nettings over the course of 5 months.

 

[pecan2phat]

Hey Trigger,

KI also has not worked for me this time around. I've used up about 6L of the stuff in 3 full aggressive (150% dosages) treatments complemented with their Rally product halfway into the 2nd and in all of the 3rd treatment. (17% water changes were performed inbetween treatments with a 2 day waiting period) What's really gotten worse is the secondary bacterial infections that have taken place due to the weaken immune system. I started my KI treatment in the affected FOWLR tank on 9/26/05 and within the last 10 days, I started to lose fish every other day. The count is now up to 6 lost with 4 left. I've given up on KI even though it has worked in the past for me on one or two occasions when the infection is very light.

I stopped the KI treatment about two weeks ago and started another product but had no positive results. I ended up speaking to the manufacturer and what was concluded upon could have hampered any good results. One, I left all the KI & Rally in the water column (no water changes or skimming/carbon turned on) which could have negated some effects of the latest medication & two, I had left my Phosban reactor operating all this time due to Ruby Reef's data that phosphate binding media can be left running.
So basically just circulation from the sump return and a powerhead is running for flow. It's almost been a full tank crash because none of the four fish that are left look well but I'll still try.

 

[Triggerfish]

sorry to hear that pecan...was that 'other' product the NSF?
amazingly, my fish remain visibly healthy in every other way.
appreciate your feedback, and worse thing is that you have to start over.. i wouldn't even chance it with the same system..i would tear the whole thing completely down.

good luck man...

 

[pecan2phat]

Yes Trigger, the other product is NSF.

I'll test the product and let you know if is any good. It's like with Ruby Reef's KI, they sell tons of this stuff but reported positive results are a small percentage yet hobbiest like you and I will still try it

I'll give NSF their "try" also.

I did get a chance to test it in my SPS & clams dominated reef tank and the results were promising. If you remember, I had originally started treatment back in July with KI (at regular dosages) and my acros & caps started to RTN about 2/3rds into the 15 day treatment, so treatments were stopped and the weaker fish died but all still had the parasite, just not full blown. I would see some spots on a true perc and I would see the Anthias and wrasses scratch along the overflow box and starboard bottom. I basically did nothing from mid July to about the end of October. No additional losses with the exception of a Barletts. I added the product for 12 days and it all looked good. Scratching stopped at about day 7 and the few spots that were on the true perc disappeared at around day 10.
On day 15 or 16, I see the scratching come back. This is when I spoke to the manufacturer about my no success with the FOWLR and the comeback regarding the reef tank. The running Phosban reactor on both tanks were not initially disclosed by me cause I totally forgot about them.
So now that I have the opportune conditions, I will try the medication again with it's good or bad results.
All skimmers off, carbon & phosban reactors offline, UV sterilizers turned off and a 77% water change performed on the 90g FOWLR over a course of 3 days prior to the start of the medication for the second time around.

I started on 11/13 for both tanks.

 

[Triggerfish]

I did get a chance to test it in my SPS & clams dominated reef tank and the results were promising. I added the product for 12 days and it all looked good. Scratching stopped at about day 7 and the few spots that were on the true perc disappeared at around day 10.
On day 15 or 16, I see the scratching come back.

so things improved after day 7? as you mentioned the following regarding the product on 10/31.
"I am on day 5 of the NSF treatment and it doesn't seem to slow down the progression of the infection. It has actually gotten worse with a lose of a Majestic angel on day 4."
OR was that with the FOWLR?

so all of a sudden 3 days later and the entire population is wiped out?
i'm curious as to how long of a duration you need to treat with this product. you mention that the manufacturer directions indicate treatment was for 1 drop/25g -2x/day for 7 days.
did you use it longer than that?

you mention scratching,,did you actually see any visible infection signs after day 15 or 16?

 

[Triggerfish]

Re: Problems from hypo?

Re: Problems from hypo?

I'm pretty sure he's ich-free now, since he continues to be clean even with this latest stress. He spent 6 weeks in hypo before we started raising the salinity, currently at 1.017.

I fear that all of this stems from the degraded water quality we experienced following hurricane Wilma (since corrected). Either than, or some lingering effect of the extended period in hyposalinity.

Cross your fingers for me, hopefully he'll pull through.

yeah,,apparently those fish need superb water quality round the clock.. great looking fish though,,was cool watching them in the surge action on the inner reef slopes in Hawaii..awesome.

how long you going to observe after you raise the sg back?
thinking 2 weeks should do it.
good luck

 

[guitarfish]

i've put my angel through 2 hypo treatments ,3 copper treatments and 3 FW dips along with numerous nettings over the course of 5 months.

You did all that and the ich survived??

 

[pecan2phat]

The improvement on day 7 was in the 120g SPS reef tank. I dosed 5 drops twice a day. On day 7 the most obvious fish that scratched all the time (yellow coris wrasse), stopped scratching but I continued to dose until I ran out. I took a look at the true perc around day 10 and I didn't see any spots that were previously on his top backside. I ran out of medication on day 12 so I waited to see. But the scratching came back a few days later. I don't see any visable signs of the parasite on any of the fish but the scratching is there.

The meds was also dosed into the 90g FOWLR at the same time frame. It showed no improvements at all during the 12 days. Things actually got worse but not in terms of overall attachments of the parasite, but the color loss, body ulcers and fin rot. A lot of the blame is on my part for the excessive loss of fish because I didn't clear the KI & Rally out of the water column before adding a different medication in. I thought the Rally would help the bacterial infections and that the KI would work it's way out.

When speaking with the manufacturer, he said that in most cases, 7 days will work because there is an active ingredient that will cause the eggs to hatch (this is what he told me), but in rare cases he stated that it has taken up to 3.5 weeks of dosing.

I don't know what the outcome will be, but so far what I plan to do is to dose for the full seven days and look for improvement. If the symtoms are totally gone, then I'll continue to dose a for an additional 3 days and then wait a week before I turn everything back on.
If I see that there is improvement but the visable signs are still lingering, then I'll dose untill the bottle runs out.
If I see no improvement, then I'll just chalk it up as a med that was tried & not effective.

 

[Triggerfish]

I had heard of the varients of crypto that are resisitent to hypo, but last time I checked, it was never seen in captivity (yet).

where do you check for this sort of data?

 

[pecan2phat]

With my reef tank, this and KI would be the only viable option and KI is off the list now cause it did exactlywhat I was trying to avoid with the SPS corals.

With the FOWL, in hindsight of course, I should have just taken out the liverock snails & urchins, placed them into a rubbermaid tub and hypo'd the tank.

 

[Triggerfish]

What I don't know is, when it falls off the fish and attaches to something (rock, sand, etc.), can it stay "dormant" for a long time?

from this article:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm


"The longest recorded period of time for tomonts to hatch is 72 days (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). The life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is temperature dependent so it is highly unlikely for such an extended period to occur in a tropical aquarium."

 

[Triggerfish]

I don't know the PPT vs sg conversiton / relationship. Is 11 PPT = to 1.011?

no, i believe it would be 1.008

http://saltyzoo.com/SaltyCalcs/SgPptConv.php

 

[jimmyj7090]

thanks, I've been scratching my head on that one.

 

[Triggerfish]

Problems that do occur is when fish are "immune" to it or can harbor the parasite in it's gills for a period of time without showing symptoms, only to show up when something stresses the tank.

that bit about the parasite is perhaps the most complexing.

this statement exemplifies that a bit.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm

"Fish that have survived a challenge with Cryptocaryon irritans can develop some level of acquired immunity for up to six months (Burgess & Mathews, 1995b). Some fish will not develop any protection or acquired immunity. Fish maintain immunity by the presence of the parasite without evidence of pathological lesions. However, many fish are not completely protected and can sustain a low level infection (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). This may account for outbreaks at a later date since the parasite was not eliminated from the system. Stress can diminish the fish's immunity, enabling the parasite population to increase, resulting in a renewed outbreak (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). Immunity or partial immunity may also explain why some of the inconsistently effective treatments previously mentioned appear to work at times."

i am a bit confused as if the parasite is successful at finding a host and attaches,,doesn't it feed off the fish to survive,,and as it feeds doesn't it grow. Or even at it's largest size it is still invisible to the naked eye. Only will it become visible if the fish displays a "pathological lesion"? which is not actually the parasite you see but only the hosts reaction to it. which it wouldn't display if immune.
darn confusing...

 

[Triggerfish]

You did all that and the ich survived??

it was either still on the fish or still in the tank when i added him in.

 

[Triggerfish]

When speaking with the manufacturer, he said that in most cases, 7 days will work because there is an active ingredient that will cause the eggs to hatch. If I see no improvement, then I'll just chalk it up as a med that was tried & not effective.

wow..would sure as hell like to know what the mystery active ingredient is made up of????

well,,you seem candid enough that i am now interested in what your outcome will be here. either that or if you report back that it has appeared to work, you get the #1 NSF salesman award for the thread.

 

[guitarfish]

I had heard of the varients of crypto that are resisitent to hypo, but last time I checked, it was never seen in captivity (yet).

where do you check for this sort of data?

The articles below, specifically ATJ's, are the ones I've used for reference in the past. In Part 2 of 5 of Terry's series is this paragraph:

Several new strains of Cryptocaryon irritans have been identified in Taiwan and other locations (Burgess & Mathews, 1995. Diggles and Adlard,1997). Highly aberrant and divergent isolates from Chiayi and Kaoshiung are of particular interest (Yambot, et al., 2003). The Chiayi isolate was discovered in a pond with a salinity of only 5ppt. This was the first recorded incidence of a Cryptocaryon irritans outbreak at such a low salinity. The Kaoshiung isolate was obtained from 12th-generation tomonts that originated from a cage at 10ppt salinity (Yambot, et al., 2003). Diggles and Lester, (1996a) suggested that the range of Cryptocaryon irritans has extended into estuaries.

It was around the time Terry wrote the series that he stated that he wasn't aware of anyone getting the low salinity form of ich in captivity. That was probably close to 2 years ago.


ATJ's Marine Ich Reference

See the series by Terry Bartelme for a more in depth discussion, including possible treatments.

News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 1 of 5
News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 2 of 5
News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 3 of 5
News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 4 of 5
News from the Warfront with Cryptocaryon irritans - 5 of 5

One thing I didn't see discussed in this thread is the "transfer method" for eliminating ich, which is in Part 3. Others have called it the "bucket" method. It sounds quite effective, but definitely more stressful for the fish.

 

[guyguerra]

I tried the transfer method, and lost a hippo tang doing it. The fish wasn't doing well when I started, but still, it's a lot harder than it sounds to manage healthy water in three buckets. The stress on the fish is enormous.
I chuckled when I saw your comment "You did all that and the ich survived?? Thats the type of work I went thru, thats why I QT everything, and why I make sure the fish can go a week or two (I have to keep reminding myself "two",as I've never been a patient person) in clear water to see if the parasite re groups. I hope to never go thru that again!