"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6631527#post6631527 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jeffbrig
Lack of substrate/rock makes it harder for ich to reproduce.

is there any data discussing this?
if there is nothing for the tomont to adhere to so they can encyst and just keep getting blown around in the current. can this inhibit the lifecycle.
can a tomont encyst in the water column and release from there?

 

[guitarfish]

I don't have the reference handy, but it's been reported that barebottom, or even QT'ing in buckets, has slowed the reproduction of ich, presumably because glass/plastic surfaces aren't as friendly to adhere to. Interesting if it's true, but I've never considered it to be necessary to kill ich.

 

[jeffbrig]

Trigger,

Steven Pro's excellent series about ich in RK Mag discussed this. I think there was also a story about a wholesaler who had lots of problems with ich in concrete holding tanks, but not in fiberglass. The difference as thought to be the smooth vs. rough bottom. Completely anecdotal, but interesting nonetheless.

I'll see if I can pull a link....

As guitarfish said, it's probably not necessary, anything that makes it harder for ich to reproduce could increase your odds of beating it.

 

[Triggerfish]

it would make sense from a 'daily' bottom syphoning standpoint to at the very least potentially reduce the population.
as you would figure the cysts would just land on the bottom, or perhaps all areas of glass.

 

[jeffbrig]

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

I have found the best quarantine/hospital tanks to be bare bottomed (no crushed coral or sand) and decorated with inert, nonporous, and "easy-to-clean-and-sanitize" items. Short sections of various diameter PVC pipe work very well for shelter. Live rock does not meet these criteria and therefore I do not recommended its use. It is best to not use any calcareous materials as they will absorb and interfere with some medications.

There is also another possible benefit to using all of these smooth, artificial materials in your quarantine tank. In studying outbreaks of Cryptocaryon irritans in Brown Spotted Grouper (Epinephelus tauvina) at an aquaculture station, Rasheed (1989) <b>found that fish kept in concrete vessels routinely fell victim to Ich while those kept at the same facility with identical care, but in fiberglass containers suffered absolutely no infestations. She theorized that the cyst stage of the parasite found the smooth sides of the fiberglass tanks inhospitable.</b> While not proven, it is very interesting and definitely something to keep in mind. At the very least, this type of setup is extremely easy to clean and disinfect if necessary.

 

[jeffbrig]

Also, from that article

Treatment Option 5 - Daily Water Changes:

John Walsh related this method in a presentation given to the Pittsburgh Marine Aquarium Society, Inc. It is safe and effective for all marine fish (Colorni, 1985) and is my preferred first course of action. Fish are put into a quarantine/hospital tank and then <b>everyday for two weeks the tank is completely cleaned and a 50% water change is performed</b>. While the size of this water change may concern some aquarists who are not accustomed to water changes of this magnitude, as long as you are careful about matching the temperature and salinity, you should not experience any problems. <b>This method helps to remove the tomites, tomonts, and theronts from the tank and lessens the chance of reinfection</b>. The fish should remain in quarantine for an additional month to ensure the treatment has worked and to allow them time to gain strength.

I'm not advocating this as a standalone strategy, but regular siphoning will reduce ich populations, lessening chance of re-infection.

I'm all for a multi-pronged attack where it's easy and appropriate. Hypo is my primary method, but siphoning for water changes is something that needs to be done anyway, and going bare w/PVC is a simple decision when assembling your QT.

 

[Triggerfish]

Update: Post Hyposalinity Main tank treatment
Week 1

Fish Condition
> all 25 fish doing well - active, eating aggressively

Main Tank Condition
>Ca back up to normal levels
>alk coming down a bit from high of 20
>about 75% of coraline turned white
>added back some LPS - scrubbed for remaining ich cysts

15g Coral holding tank Condition
> still couple of corals attached to rock remaind more stress to this tank


Hypo Summary
1/8 - 1.009 - hypo started
1/11 - no spots visible
1/27 - salinity at 1.022 raised over 4 days
1/31 - no real signs of parasite yet- too early to tell

Note: the hermit crabs appeared to have survived hypo treatment as the ones remaining are still alive.

 

[Triggerfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6631753#post6631753 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jeffbrig
Also, from that article
"everyday for two weeks the tank is completely cleaned and a 50% water change is performed."

damn,,that's alot of maintenance.. not for me...

 

[jeffbrig]

I didn't do it anywhere near that frequently. For the first few weeks, while establishing the 55g QT's filter, I was doing 10g water changes almost daily, and 25g 1-2 times a week as needed to keep ammonia down. I just used that opportunity to clean and siphon the bottom of the tank. Eventually the biofilter caught up, and I was able to back off on maintenance.

Note to self: there are a bunch of fish easier than an achilles tang to start out with when you have an immature bio filter. Not sure what I was thinking....

 

[Triggerfish]

awesome fish though and i would love to get one some day...
gl

 

[bheron]

Its nice to see this thread still thriving. Im back to give an update on my unique situation.

Again, like I noted before, this is not to draw any conclusions, hard statements, or prove anything. This thread is so helpful in sharing experiences, I thought Id continue to share my ICH experience....


Background
Over a year ago, in my old setup, my Hippo Tang came down with ICH. After reading up, the only thing I did was soak his food in garlic. To my delight, the ich quickly went away and never came back. Disclaimer: as this thread talks about, I'm not saying it was the garlic that cured it. Just sharing what I did.

From that day forward I always soaked the food in Garlic and never had a bout with ICH again. Lucky!

Fast forward to this December 12th..
In my brand new 210 setup which was up for a few weeks, my Hippo Tang began to show signs of ICH. There some details around how I think he got it, but thats not important here. Finding this thread, I decided not to QT and to ride it out with ICH and just continued healthy maintenance of my fish.

December 25th
Two weeks later, Ich has not gone away and, if anything, has gotten worse. But, the Hippo seems happy and healthy otherwise. Has a full appetite as usual.

December 26th
Tired from a day full of activities, I was too lazy to soak their food in garlic (for the first time in a long time).

December 27th
Woke up to find the ICH almost COMPLETELY gone from the Hippo!!! Not kidding here. All spots almost gone. I posted in this thread on the 28th with the findings. Most people said that I was nuts b/c I should've known that the ICH has a cycle and will just come back even worse than before. I sadly agreed.

Today...
Well, I havent used garlic since and my Hippo has not shown one single sign of ICH at all!


Again, I'm not proposing anything here. Im a huge fan of garlic. BUt, for some reason, things worked out for me. Just thought it was strange how it worked!

 

[reg828]

important suggestion triggerfish, before you take out all your fish to the qt. "make sure your qt tank has been cycled for at least two weeks". because if not it will add another stress to your fish or you might even loose some fish because qt tank that big will cycle because its not established yet. i lost two fish that couldnt take the nitrite spike, but some fish can tolerate it as well. if you dont want to cycle it first, then you have the option of changing the water more frequently, which i think is a pain, too much work.

 

[Triggerfish]

Bryan- interesting phenomenon you have experienced there to say the least.
i'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest:
garlic eradication would not be c.irritan strain dependent
if it was ich you were/are dealing with then i can only think of 2 situations where the garlic alone would have eradicated the population.
1. the garlic within the fishes system was such a deterent that the tomites refused to latch on, thus chose to die off instead.
2. the population was so small that none of the few remaining tomites found a suitable host within 24 hours.
depending how large the system was and how heavily stocked would enhance this theory.

 

[jeffbrig]

Or.....the fish's natural defenses improved as the stress of moving passed. His immune system was better able to fight off the ich infection, or at least keep it in check. So it's not exactly an ich <i>free</i> tank, but still a suitable outcome!

 

[jeffbrig]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6632767#post6632767 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by reg828
important suggestion triggerfish, before you take out all your fish to the qt. "make sure your qt tank has been cycled for at least two weeks". because if not it will add another stress to your fish or you might even loose some fish because qt tank that big will cycle because its not established yet. i lost two fish that couldnt take the nitrite spike, but some fish can tolerate it as well. if you dont want to cycle it first, then you have the option of changing the water more frequently, which i think is a pain, too much work.

Merely setting up the QT ahead of time will not "cycle" it. The game of bacteria population dynamics requires both food AND time.

Placing a sponge or other bio filter media in your systems sump gives you a headstart, but in my experience, does not immediately result in a fully functional bio filter. Water changes are the best way I know to bridge the gap.

 

[guyguerra]

I really thought I had this QT PROCESS DOWN COLD. As I said a few days ago, my coral beauty was showing ich spots, so I resorted to my time tested Cupramine procedure. Yesterday was the day for the second dose. I had to use a lot to bring it up to .5, but I had it set just as I have in the past. This morning my Sailfin Tang was almost dead. I did a large water change and put charcoal in to remove the copper, but he was dead when I got home. The others (jawfish, wrasse and coral beauty) are fine, so I don't know why the Sailfin went so fast. In the future, I intend to bring up the dosage slower. I have added copper again and removed the charcoal filter, but I'll add the Cupramine in smaller doses. I hate seeing a fish die, but I'd still rather deal with it in a QT. I have decided to only do one fish at a time from now on. That was my intention, but I got caught in the trap of seeing something else I had to have. If I would have stuck with just the wrasse, he would have made it to the display by now. Throwing four fish in a tank greatly increases the possibility of spreading a disease. Next time, it's just going to be one at a time.

 

[jimmyj7090]

It's great to see this discussion still thriving...

"possible reasons you cite are all valid given the fact that it is ich and ich only. oodinium kills quickly and is not treatable by hypo from what i have read. brook shouldn't look anything like ich so that wouldn't be confusing."

I suggested multiple or misidentified parasites because, as you said they are each distinct and require different treatments, but IMO it's very hard to differentiate until you've SEEN the different parasites. It's all too common to group or refer to all of the above as "ick". Reading descriptions in books or online gets awfully confusing until you actually see it.

In my case I saw a clear case of crypto in the very beginning stages of infection. I treated right away and was successful (fingers still crossed after a couple of months).

This thread is great, but very long. Without a good dose of Riatlin, I doubt that many people will go through all of it and be able to organize and sort out all that has been said. I think it would be very helpful to try to study the hypo successes vs. failures and see what we could figure out, in a more condensed format.

I bet a lot of newer reefers are misidentifying parasites and reporting treatments not working without actually knowing what they're dealing with (the eternal weakness of internet communication). There are also most likely correct ID's that for one reason or another aren't responding to appropriate treatments.

I guess I'm just wondering if there's a way that we can all collaborate on our experiences to help others in the future. I have no answers, just a hope (delusion) that we all may be able to make this discussion more useful for others in the future.

Bla, Bla, Bla.............

Internet discussions will never come close to true science, but if we can contrubute to a better understanding, I think that would be great. I guess we are all contributing to that better understanding, but it's a lot of work to sort it out.

Just spinning random thoughts..........

jk

 

[guitarfish]

Guy, that stinks man. I know the pain, having lost my CB a few days ago. IMO, it's better to do Cupramine slower than they say on the bottle. They have you do half the dose, than the other half two days later. I am doing 1/4 dose the first three days, then gradually bring up to .5 over day 4 & 5.

 

[guyguerra]

Guitarfish, I agree on the dosing schedule. It's the only thing that I can see that caused the Sailfin to react that way. I really blame myself. The dose was supposed to be 5ml per 10 gallons, then a second equal amount 2 days later, On the second dose, I ended up adding 15ml to get it up to the recommended .5. I've had to do this every time I've used Cupramine, but I added a little more each day because I was afraid of overdosing the tank. Even though it showed .5 last night, it must have just been too much solution added to the tank at one time. I did it this way this time because of my prior experiences. Now I know better. In future applications I'll just continue to add the recommended amount every two days until it reaches the required dosage. I hope my mistake helps others.
Jimmy, you brought up some very good points. None of us have scientific proof other than what we've all read already, but the shared experiences of all leads to the quicker education of the individual. In my case, after this morning, I'll be watching the experiences of those that use hypo, and I'll be more cautious with the use of copper.

 

[jimmyj7090]

Hey, we're all on the same team here.

I'm just thinking about how best to make this discussion/thread a useful resource to others.

BTW,
I think we may deserve an award of some sort as this it the first thread I've ever seen on RC that went on this long and has never turned negative/flame saturated.

(Mods, don't you think that all involved in this thread deserve a scoop of ice cream or a scooby snack of some sort? )
jk (My initials, but this time I mean just kidding )

.......


JK