"ICH FREE TANK" Quest Begins

[markcasto]

Seems the ich is making a come back again for a few of us tjay-hope its not getting back in your tank/ trigger- we have given the hyposalinity method a fair old crack of the whip but if it survived my full 4 weeks after the last spot was seen and your still seeing it then mybe the copper method although harsher then hypo may be the better option/ cduran-seems the copper method will be the winner here however I think the hypo is worth trying to start off with if only to save money on salt and make water changes a bit easyer!

What interests me is the ability of this parasite to maintain itself its one tough little monster.

Well my main tank has gone 6 weeks with out fish and I have decided to make it a full 8 weeks.The fish in QT can stay there until I am 99% sure the ich has been killed off.

IF all this does not convince people of the need to quarintine then nothing will.

 

[AquAsylum]

We made it through the night. Our royal gramma died last night shortly after his transfer. He had shown symptoms the longest- flashing for about 3 weeks but no visible spots, so I can only imagine it was in his gills pretty badly.

The fairy wrasse and hippo tang are the only others that look weak at this point. I will hope to see improvement after work. I dosed melafix last night and I do think it was helpful.

Salinity at 1.020, all parameters fine so far.

FWIW, I already test like a freak. I'm borderline OCD, so it doesn't bother me to repeat things over and over and over.

For those who think I'm in trouble, what exactly is my option? Regardless of the fact that I was stupid to not quarantine, I can't leave them in the main tank. Hypo will be our first attempt. If there is no great improvement after a month I will consider cupramine.

 

[plaz]

Sorry to hear your Gramma didn't make it. You may be right not to use the media from the main tank if you can get by without it. The ich would die in it when it dies on the fish, but it would ruin some of the affects of the freshwater dip you performed.

The first few days in the QT will probably be the best in terms of your water quality. At least that is how it worked for me - it takes a little while for the ammonia to start to build (still do water changes of course). At least that will give you a buffer to find something to build up your new biological filter. Check here:
http://www.marineland.com/StoreLocator/StoreLocResults.asp

Petsmart doesn't have it here. It has to be stored in the refrigerated section (which they don't have).

Also, I would call Marineland and ask them their advice.

 

[markcasto]

Laura- If you move all those fish into a 55 gallon QT tank and put your filter sponge from your old tank in there or some of it your going to be battling with ammonia.This is the biggest danger to your fish.To survive this I suggest using seachems prime it is good stuff and 5ml treats 200litres.If you can get two more 10 gallon tanks setup that would be good but if not we are back to the ammonia issue.The ammonia will peek very quickly with all those fish so your going to need lots of water for water changes and a good ammonia test kit.Test twice a day for ammonia and if it goes up dose with prime after a 20% water change.When I did this it took 3 weeks for the ammonia to level out so I was changing 40litres of water every other day and testing for ammonia once in the morning and again in the evening.Using seachems stability helped to get the bio filter working quickly and I would suggest you do the same and use both prime and stability they work very well.I tryed amquel and I did not like it my regal tang had a bad time with it and freaked out spinning around the tank but survived after a hasty water change. Using hypo salinity to treat the ich may or may not work but it will be a good starter treatment if you want to save money on salt during the water changes.I used a refractomer to make sure the salinity was kept at 1.009 for 4 weeks after slowly bringing it down each day for 5 days. 5 weeks later when I started to raise it again the white spot came back!
But we dont want any more dead fish so be warned ammonia is your number one enemy here if all those fish go into the 55 gallon QT tank.I am leaving my main tank empty for 8 weeks now and there will be no fish back in there until the ich is gone. I am now treating with copper based treatment but the hypo saved me having to spend lots on salt and the fish didnt not mind the treatment at all.Its up to you but just watch the ammonia levels and if you can get a two smaller tanks set up for QT.
All the best let me know if you have any more questions.

 

[cduran02]

No doubt hypo should be tried, I will be using it as a first resort with new aquires.

 

[AquAsylum]

I will pick up some prime and continue testing. We have a refractometer which I know will help monitor the hypo.

I do have a 20 gallon that I could set up for the less active fish- gobies and clowns, perhaps?

I would still have the cycling issues if I went the copper route instead of hypo, so we'll go one step at a time. BTW, where are all of the hypo advocates now that I have started it? All of the "research" indicated that it was the way to go, but now that you have all been through it and it wasn't successful, it is even more frustrating to think that I might be doing this for nothing.

This is just insane.

 

[Triggerfish]

l
l
l
V

 

[Triggerfish]

BTW, where are all of the hypo advocates now that I have started it?

there seems to be less room for error with hypo..apparently it is needed for a minimum of 6 full weeks starting from the last appearance of whitespots. spots are not always easy to see, and in fact could be located within gills and therefore will go unseen.

also,,sg must be maintained at target 1.009 for the entire duration.. a fraction higher could mean starting over.
any evaporation during the day will increase sg.. i have since lowered it to 1.008 to account for daily evap...also if your refract is not spot on calibrated..then that could cause further issues. perhaps even keeping the sg at 1.006-1.007 would allow for even more possible flucuation errors,,but on the high side. this would just ensure that you are keeping the QT always at least at the target level.

i surely would try it again as this was my 1st ill faited attempt..and i am running out of time to be able to adhere to the full treatment duration which could go beyond 3 months. for whatever reason,,the spots will not go away..and it is very difficult to exactly know what is going on with my maroon as it is really tough to see if they are ich spots or some whitish body fungus that he would get from time to time over the past 2 yrs.

at this point i will just run a copper treatment and hope the test kit is measuring accurately.
but i would try hypo again if need be.

but now that you have all been through it and it wasn't successful

well,,that is still to be determined..
both mark and I did not go the full duration,,so our trials are not valid.
Tjay- may have had success,,he still needs to monitor for another month or so. also the hypo may have worked fine to eradicate the ich from the infected fish and QT,,however,,the main tank that was infected needed to be fallow for a minimum of what,,6-8 weeks.. nothing to say that method is "fool" proof either.., although the documentation is suggesting a 99.9% that 8 weeks at tropical temps should do it...

 

[markcasto]

Having tried hypo I think it is best to see it as another way to cure white spot beside using copper.However I did not keep it going for 6 weeks I did it for 4 weeks plus a week to lower the salinity over a 7 day period.

It was 4 weeks with no sign of the ich but the trouble is seeing the parasite when it infests only the gills.Every last one of them has to be killed off or we are back to the beginning again.In my case 6 weeks may have done it but I dont know because I didnt go that far.

The key here is time and patience with careful monitoring and record keeping.Keep in mind that my fish are all still in the QT tank being observed but my main tank will go on with out fish for a full 8 weeks from all we have gathered this will insure that the ich in there is dead.

I have found this whole process frustrating indeed but it has also taught me a lot and I am sure it will be useful to everyone who take the time to read this thread.
I wish you all the best my Regal Tangs and I have become great friends now they eat out of my hands! This was one of the benifits of having them in QT.

 

[AquAsylum]

Okay, okay. It was a looong night and I'm down in the dumps about this whole thing. I will forge ahead and hope to be successful.

If anyone has done the complete hypo program, point me in that direction. I'm talking about a minimum of 4 weeks after last spots plus monitoring for about the same after returning salinity to normal levels.

Is 81-82 high enough for the display tank? I can go a little higher but don't want to upset the inverts and corals.

 

[Triggerfish]

If anyone has done the complete hypo program, point me in that direction. I'm talking about a minimum of 4 weeks after last spots plus monitoring for about the same after returning salinity to normal levels.

Is 81-82 high enough for the display tank? I can go a little higher but don't want to upset the inverts and corals.

this is a pretty decent link to the process.
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

It does state the following: "The goal is to granularly reduce the salinity of the water to between 12 and 14ppt and leave it at that salinity for at least 4 weeks but preferably 6 weeks. Basically continue the treatment for at least 4 weeks after the last spots disappeared."

upon doing this again..i would probably go with 6 weeks after the last spot disappeared.. mark went 4 for what he thought may be enough and it wasn't. this will also maybe give you a bit of room in case you may have "missed" seeing 1 spot.

i think that temp would be fine as your tank will be fallow for 7-8 weeks.

 

[AquAsylum]

Thanks. I was wondering if there is anyone who has been part of the forum/this thread who completed hypo, relocated fish into the display, and reported no return of the evil.

 

[markcasto]

Not sure who lasted the full 6 weeks.Why dont you try hypo for a full sixweeks with your fish then if the ich reappears when you bring the salinity back to normal you will be on to a winner. Your tank is going to have to be empty of fish for 6 weeks any way to get rid of the ich in there so you have nothing to lose.I think that if I had kept it at 1.009 for the full six weeks instead of bringing it back up after 4 then it may just have cured it.It certainly kept any spots appearing on my fish for those 4 weeks. IF it doesnt work you can then go on to try copper.I found that when having to put my fish in an uncyled tank using the hypo treatment saved me a lot of money on salt for the water changes and now the tanks have got a full load of bacteria I can treat with copper with out having to worry about ammonia levels.If I had to face this all over again I would treat with hypo for 6 weeks and then if that failed I would use copper.But keeping your main tank empty of fish for 8 weeks is a long time.

 

[markcasto]

And if your feeling down in the dumps it gets better as the weeks go by.I lost a lot of my fish through all this some because of the ammonia peeks and the others because of the carpet fitter spraying adhesive around my other tank that was painful.
But I am glad to be a part of this thread and its been great sharing all this info with every one.

 

[plaz]

Fish treatment is the most frustrating part of this hobby! Experts seem to disagree, but are usually very strict in their own opinion of what is right.

I was a wreck when I had to take all my fish through the quarantine process. Like you, I read and read. I thought I had a good cycle... but lost whatever there was of it with the Hypo. After I lost my Hippo to the ammonia spike, I chickened out on continuing to put my Yellow tang and others through it in the other tank. I ended up raising it very slowly after 3 weeks.

I had started the Yellow out in a QT with a strong UV and massive water changes before starting the hypo. I never saw spots or scratching after the UV. I watched her for a few months while I took 2 Hippos through QT. The only treatment I did for them was a FW dip, bio-pira to get filter started, water changes and watching them REALLY, REALLY closely until over 8 weeks had passed. The hippos were from LA and never had any spots from day one.

Everything has been back in the tank for a few months with no return. The tank ended up fallow for 3 months. My nerves were shot. But apparently the 95% odds I was given by the experts (if you watch them for 6 - 8 with no spots - even though treatment not completed) paid off. Nothing goes in my tank now without a 6 week quarantine (not even a snail or rock)!

From everything I've read, you have 2 and a half options (the half is what I think worked for me):
- Hypo (but very few people seem to have made it through the whole treatment without loosing a fish or having spots return)
- Cupramine and very careful testing to not overdose (the only copper I would ever try with Tangs... )
... and the half option (not perfect or recommended by ANY means, just ended up working for me).... Massive or complete water changes daily with aged matched water, over-sized UV and WATCHING like a hawk after spots and scratching are all gone.

All I'm saying is hang in there. Sometimes dumb luck happens.

Your biggest obstacle (other than the weakened fish) is that cycle!

 

[markcasto]

Things to do while your main tank is empty of fish for 8 weeks.
1.Go fishing
2.Go kite flying
3.Rearrange your main tank
4.Read a good book on how to kill parasites
5.Get to know your fish better
6.Write a book on the subject of hypo salinity and how to avoid staring at your tank all day long.
7.Start another fish only tank
8.Give up this hobby and become a nun
9.Go fishing again
10.Admit defeat...never!!!

 

[plaz]

I'm not sure why everyone is so worried about the main tank... the bugs built up nicely

... and I had no time to worry about it anyway

... all I had time to do was change water... and change water.... and change water... and read threads... and change water... and worry... and change water!

 

[AquAsylum]

LOL...

No bio spira in my county. Or either of the 2 adjacent. I will hypo for 6 weeks. If no spots, I will wait 6 weeks after the last spot sighting and then raise salinity. As markcasto suggested, if higher salinity brings the bugs back, I will at least have rested fish and a decent biological build up to run against cupramine.

Heading home now to make sure everybody got through the day and see who is willing to eat.

Then to suck up with a turkey baster any uneaten food and poop.

Then a water change.

Then, if I can still stay awake, to watch everyone. Like a hawk.

What a warmup for having a baby...That will seem like cake after this. Has there ever been a thread about how having a marine tank is like parenting...

 

[AquAsylum]

PS- we definitely wanted to redo our rockscaping in the main tank anyway.

The only bad news about the fallow tank is that i'm now going to be religious about using a QT system, so I won't be able to add corals or inverts b/c our QT tanks will be occupied! I refuse to start running an 8th tank in the house!

Yes, we have 7- main 120 display salt, 90 gallon FW cichlid, 10 gallon FW betta/snail, 20 gallon reptile terrarium, 55 gallon QT, 10 gallon SW of crap my husband collects at the beach, and if I setup another 20 gallon QT, that would make 7!

 

[markcasto]

And a baby on the way as well!
LOL your gonna be busy then.

I have a 200 litre water holder out side my back kitchen and I have emptyed it 3 times doing all the water changes, mind you I would rather do water changes then changing nappys any day.