Many (if not most) tanks have ich present in low levels that never effect the fish unless otherwise stressed.I would consider moving the bony fishes to QT to treat-and I would slap a oversized UV unit on the preditor display. Stuart is correct in his statments- there likely will not be a total cure as long as you own a stingray- but there is no reason with good husbandry that your fish will be reinfected constantly.
Ich in my preadtor tank...
- Thread starter Luhring
- Start date
Stuart60611
New member
I respetfully disagree here. Good husbandry will not prevent the fish from becomming reinfected but only prevent them from becomming symptomatic. In fact, I think you will do much more harm to your other fish by treating them then by simply doing nothing at all through the stressing them out by removing them from the display, treating them in a sepearate tank, and then returning them back to the display with the stingray to virtually for certain be reinfected. I agree that many systems have ich and that it is often the best choice not to treat and through good husbandry keep the fish infected with ich asymptomatic the best you can. That is what you should do here if you are not going to treat the stingray. As long as you have a stringray, don't treat it, and keep your other fish with the stringray, all of your fish will be infected. Therefore, treating makes absolutely no sense and actually only harms your fish by forcing them to endure the stress of treatment with no benefits. Don't treat any of your fish if you are not going to treat all of them and just keep husbandry high and help your fish hopefuly learn to tolerate the ich. Also, a UV will will not prevent the ich from spreading to all fish in the system, and at most can prevent ich from spreading from two different systems sharing common plumbing. Thousands of ich cysts will attach to virtually every surface in the infected display, and many of the free swimmers who will hatch will never pass through the UV, find a fish, and attach to a fish to fall off, reattach to a tank surface, and continue the lifecycle.
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Its one of those things like religion, you can believe that there are ich free tanks- and they do exist- but the truth is we don`t know the levels of these organisms in the average tank. I have seen instances where tanks that had no fish introductions for 10 years would get a fatal outbreak in a time of severe stress. The key thing here- he has to do the best he can given what his situation is. He has been given both our opinions- as well as others, so he needs to do some more research and do what is best for his tank. I think these types of threads would be of more help to the original poster if the opinion we hold is what we state rather than always having to have the last word on why our opinion is most valid.
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Stuart60611
New member
I did not re-post to try to show that my opinion was more valid than yours, but instead to point out an incorrect statement you made which I did not want the OP to rely upon and to point out that UV will not work to prevent the parasites from spreading from fish to fish. I posted this because this is not a matter of opinion but accepted information. Good husbandry will not prevent any fish from being infected with the parasite when being housed with another fish who has the parasite but instead only at most prevent a fish from showing symptoms because studies have shown that fish almost always re-infect their tankmates. Unless the fish has full or a partial immunity (which has been shown to only last temporarily), studies have shown that that infected fish will virtually always infect non-infected fish in the same system. This is not my opinion, but it is instead something that has been shown and is described in every published article on the subject and several scientific studies, particularlly the most famous Burgess study conducted in the 80s. I posted because people often confuse the idea of a fish not being infected with the parasite with the fish instead not showing symptoms but still being infected. A very important distinction. My post further was important because the OP should not be lead to believe that their installation of UV is in anyway going to prevent his fish treated outside the display from being reinfected with ich from the stingray once they return to the display with the untreated stingray. This is also not my opinion, but instead something accepted and stated in many published articles on UV's effectiveness against ich. There are just so many myths about this parasite floating around that it is necessary to make sure people have correct information so that they do not inadvertantly kill their fish.
It is true there is a lot we do not know about ich and many opinions about it. However, what we do not want to do mistate things about ich that we know are not correct.
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After viewing your profile I now understand where you are comming from- my brother is an lawyer as well. You are obviously had problems with parasites and are very well read upon the subject. I don`t discredit you on anything other than your beliefs in copper and animals that are sensitive to it. I have always believed it is people like yourself, that are intelligent and motivated to study in detail a small part of the hobby,is to be looked to for advice by the pro that needs to know a little about everything. That being said you also need to be flexible in your opinions- especially when it comes to animals you have had little experience with. The only issues I have entered on the parasite area were ones that delt with people being advised to use copper on animals that it is counterindicated for.
Stuart60611
New member
I agree. I am fairly flexible with my opinions, although perhaps it may seem like I am not. I have unfortunately had quite substantial experience with ich in many different systems for quite a few years and have read probably every significant published article on the subject and all the most well known scientific studies first hand. I have also tried, multiple times, most forms of accepted treatment. My view about treating sensitive species with cupramine is not just my view, but something that it expressly stated as appropriate from the manufacturer who indicates that cupramine, unlike ionic copper, can be used on such sensitive species. It is also born out based on my and many others actually so treating on multiple occassions without a problem. However, clearly that is an issue of opinion. Whether good husbandry or UV can prevent ich from spreading from fish to fish in a system is not a matter of opinion and something that is pretty much settled fact. There is just so much confusion and opinion that needs to be measured by hobbyists when deciding how to deal with ich that I think it is important to at least keep things consistent about those items of information we can state as fact.
"laywer - smawyer".....I'm just a poor junk dealer in Texas, however I believe you are both intelligent and have valid points. In actuality, both do have merit, and can be followed.
The "whammy" here is of course the ray. Since it is impossible for us to know that MI has definitively infected the ray (hold on a bit Stuart:rollface
, rays, sharks, eels, etc. may harbor ich, or may not harbor ich, I know of cases where the option given by syrinx was heeded with an eel. The fish were removed and treated with chelated copper in a QT, while the eel was left in the DT for 10 weeks. The fish were returned ich free, and were not re-infected. For some reason MI does not have the same affinity towards these species as most bony fish.
Since the OP is a good ol' boy from Texas, I will chime in again.
1. Do as syrinx has suggested, although Stuart may be right
2. Remove all (including the ray) and treat with a quinine bassed drug
3. Do not remove any fish, and maintain excellent water quality, and feed very highly nutritious foods.
4. Do NOT treat the ray with copper based drugs
In your situation, I personally would opt for #2, with #3 being my second choice. One thing the OP has not indicated is how bad the outbreak is.
I do agree with points from both syrinx, and Stuart. I also believe that sometimes approaches offered somtimes seem to derail from what the OP was originally asking.
SV
The "whammy" here is of course the ray. Since it is impossible for us to know that MI has definitively infected the ray (hold on a bit Stuart:rollface
, rays, sharks, eels, etc. may harbor ich, or may not harbor ich, I know of cases where the option given by syrinx was heeded with an eel. The fish were removed and treated with chelated copper in a QT, while the eel was left in the DT for 10 weeks. The fish were returned ich free, and were not re-infected. For some reason MI does not have the same affinity towards these species as most bony fish.Since the OP is a good ol' boy from Texas, I will chime in again.
1. Do as syrinx has suggested, although Stuart may be right
2. Remove all (including the ray) and treat with a quinine bassed drug
3. Do not remove any fish, and maintain excellent water quality, and feed very highly nutritious foods.
4. Do NOT treat the ray with copper based drugs
In your situation, I personally would opt for #2, with #3 being my second choice. One thing the OP has not indicated is how bad the outbreak is.
I do agree with points from both syrinx, and Stuart. I also believe that sometimes approaches offered somtimes seem to derail from what the OP was originally asking.
SV
We agree on more than we disagree on- which is chiefly the cupramine. As stated it is reccomended at1/4 dose for sensitives like rays- and discontinued if signs of stress are noted. Problem is- with rays once you see the stress- you then see a dead ray. You are correct about the UV not being a method to keep ich from reinfecting other fish- but the UV is very important for sharks and rays to keep bacterial infections down which in turn make them less suseptible to parasite issues. Although my advice might not have meshed with the current online information for the total eradication of ich, his situation does not avail itself to easy resolution.
Stuart60611
New member
I agree that this situation is difficult. I also know some third graders who are smarter than some lawyers so my being a lawyer has nothing to do with this.
I agree that the probably only way that the OP is going to be able to safely have an ich free system is to remove all fish and the ray and treat with a quinine based drug outside the display, and otherwise, I agree not treating is the best second choice. Also, I have never owned a ray, nor indicated that I thought a ray could be treated with cupramine. Rather, I indicated above that many sensitive fish, like puffers (who I have treated with cupramine many times and who the manufacturer expressly states can be treated with cupramine), can be treated safely without any problem when these fish cannot handle other forms of copper. I only suggested that the OP look into cupramine as an option for rays b/c I would not assume that rays cannot tolerate it.
I agree that the probably only way that the OP is going to be able to safely have an ich free system is to remove all fish and the ray and treat with a quinine based drug outside the display, and otherwise, I agree not treating is the best second choice. Also, I have never owned a ray, nor indicated that I thought a ray could be treated with cupramine. Rather, I indicated above that many sensitive fish, like puffers (who I have treated with cupramine many times and who the manufacturer expressly states can be treated with cupramine), can be treated safely without any problem when these fish cannot handle other forms of copper. I only suggested that the OP look into cupramine as an option for rays b/c I would not assume that rays cannot tolerate it.
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Well alrighty then...
LOL
My Sting Ray is doing fine, I have him still in the display tank and the others in QT being treated. I lost my large Panther Grouper today, I walked up to the tank and saw his last little wiggle and breathe...very sad!
I do agree that Ich is always and will always be in our tanks. There is nothing we can do about that. We just have to try and control it when we have an out break. I have a 6" Regal Tang in my 140g reef and she gets spots every once in a while and they just go away. I don't treat her I just try to keep the stress level down by having good water parameters and friendly tank mates.
LOL
My Sting Ray is doing fine, I have him still in the display tank and the others in QT being treated. I lost my large Panther Grouper today, I walked up to the tank and saw his last little wiggle and breathe...very sad!
I do agree that Ich is always and will always be in our tanks. There is nothing we can do about that. We just have to try and control it when we have an out break. I have a 6" Regal Tang in my 140g reef and she gets spots every once in a while and they just go away. I don't treat her I just try to keep the stress level down by having good water parameters and friendly tank mates.
The out break is bad enough that it killed my Panther Grouper, a 4" Yellow Tang, and a 3" Clown.
The toad fish is just starting to show signs as well is the Lionfish. I would take pics but there is no way you could see, I tried even photo shopped them.
I hope QT the fish will work, I have not removed the ray because I would rather lose all the other fish vs. my ray!
The toad fish is just starting to show signs as well is the Lionfish. I would take pics but there is no way you could see, I tried even photo shopped them.
I hope QT the fish will work, I have not removed the ray because I would rather lose all the other fish vs. my ray!
When I mention lawyers, it was ment that i understood his attention to detail and ability to provide a pro constructed argument. Whatever the case there will be residual ich in the system- as there prob is in stuarts, mine and everyone elses tank- and it likely wont be a issue unless some stressor brings it out.
Stuart60611
New member
I did not take your comment about lawyers as an insult, and only just made my comment to let everyone know here that my status as a lawyer certainly does not make my views any more correct than others here.
I can tell you, however, that I am pretty sure I have NO ich in my tank because I cupramined my entire display (rock and sand) at .5 level for 1 month and not a single thing other than food, newly mixed saltwater, and top off water has entered my system since.
Thats the lesson of the hobby-were pretty sure- but really don`t know definitively what is in our tanks. I would say the best thing you can do for the cause- is treat your tank super carefully- so if ich does pop up in it (and I hope it wont- doubt it does) there will be more data. Only by people following the exact protocals can we see whether or not they are valid.
Stuart60611
New member
I really hate to be the naysayer here, but I want to point this out because I really think that this approach is going to accomplish the exact opposite of what you intend. From experience, what I think is a very likely possibility here is you are going to treat all these fish and rid them of the parasite outside the display. The fish after just enduring treatment are going to be in a weak state. You are then going to take these stressed weakened fish and return them to a display which is already infected with ich. These stressed and weakened fish are then likely going to get re-infected with ich when returned to the display even worse (and then many may die) than when they had it before because of their weakened state. This new outbreak could be very sizeable based on the number of weak fish being newly re-infected and unable to resist the parasites and create enough stress in the system that the ray then becomes symptomatic. I have seen this type of situation play out like this multiple other times and am just trying to spare you this.
Anyway, that's my view and enough said. Going to go celebrate the new year. Happy new year to all.
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After treatment I am going to QT them for at the least 3 weeks, then add them back. I understand about them being weak and I am not gonna but them threw that, I am smarter than that. I have not found anything that says it will be ok on my ray and I really am not willing to "TRY" something, it has to be proven before I will take that chance on my ray. My ray is my prized possession!
Stuart60611
New member
Smart plan. Just so you know, I am possitive that chloroquine phosphate (quinine based drug) is for certain absolutely safe to use with the ray, sharks, and eels. You can purchase it from Fishman Chemicals. The problem with chloroquine is its effectiveness. Chloroquine works better at killing ich than any other treatment available because it is the only treatment which kills the parasite both in the free swimming stage and while attached to fish. It is also extremely mild and tolerated well by all fish. The problem with the treatment is that the medicine breaks down rapidly in saltwater, and we have no way to test its concentration without expensive lab grade equipment. As such, you have to use an educated guess as to how much to dose when treating and sometimes guess wrong and fail to maintain therapeutic treatment level of the drug. Therefore, you often have to perform a series of treatments to make sure you get rid of the ich. Research it. Many zoos and public aquariums regularly use the treatment, as well as hobbyists. I have used the treatment several.times.
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