Ich outbreak in newer DT, should I hypo?

[houstonreefer20]

I have a newer (~3 months old) display tank I recently setup. I finally decided too add fish, and decided to just take a risk and toss in the tangs I wanted all at once without quarantine, in hopes that: a) they all get along, b) I can treat the full tank before adding corals as needed, and c) I dont have a big enough qaurantine for 4 tangs. The DT is 150 gallons.

All was well. Fast forward 3 weeks, and I added some chaeto - then made the terrible mistake of not both dipping/quartantining the chaeto! A few days later, I noticed ich on some of my fish, so I assume it's related to the chaeto.

The ich has been on the fish for the past 2 weeks, and they seem to be healthy and fine, with just some ich spots. I really hate the idea of having ich, and dont know what it will do to other fish, despite these fish seemingly being able to handle it.

So, fast forward to now, and I'm considering doing a full hyposalinity treatment on the full tank. The tank has 4 tangs, some chromis, and clown fish. There is sand and live rock as well. I was going to follow the instructions located here http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-hyposalinity-treatment-process.23131/

Does this seem reasonable to others? Are there any risks or concerns with doing the hyposalinity on a big tank of this size, besides die off of snails/shrimp? (I'll move them to a quarantine tank)

Thanks

 

[ThRoewer]

While the chaeto can't be excluded, I think it more likely came in with the un-quarantined tangs (those are the fish you can almost guarantee to come with ich). Ich can take a few weeks to show up if the fish only had a mild infection or if they came from a system that was kept at low dose copper. The low dose copper will weaken the ich enough to not explode or kill fish, but it remains alive and infective.
Also if the starting infection was low the parasites needed the 3 weeks to build up the numbers so that you could see it.

I personally would never consider treating a DT with anything, especially if I plan to put corals in there later. Even hyposalinity has the potential to mess up you system - at a minimum it will kill of all the beneficial stuff the corals will later need.

Another issue is that a treatment in the infected DT would require to go over a minimum of 11 weeks - that's s huge strain on your fish and I can almost guarantee that you will have losses.

If the DT is set up with dead rock and contains nothing else of value I would rather pull the fish and treat them separately with TTM or hyposalinity for two weeks and at the same time sterilize the tank (heat, bleach,...) and restart it.

If you don't want to sterilize the DT you will have to let it sit fallow for at least 11 weeks.

The fish would need to be kept in an appropriate holding tank while the DT is fallow.
Their chances to make it through this alive are way higher than during a 11 week treatment in the DT.

 

[houstonreefer20]

The DT is setup with only dead rock, so the only beneficial thing in the tank currently are just the fish. Which is the only reason I'd propose working on the full DT with all the fish in there.

I guess I'm a bit confused at what you're suggesting. If I removed the fish and did hypo treatment to them separately in a quarantine tank, why would that be any different stress wise than in my DT? I'd imagine it's actually less stressful in the DT, since they already are comfortable in it, wont be netted, larger, etc. I still feel like hypo on the full tank is less stressful. Unless you're suggesting being able to do the tank transfer method in quarantine which I wont be able to do in DT?

 

[ThRoewer]

It would be different since the HT(s) would not have ich cysts. The cysts are immune to pretty much anything but bleach (or other extremely harsh chemicals like acids and leys) or heat. So when treating the fish in the infected DT, in order to make sure all cysts are gone you need to maintain treatment level medication or salinity for the full recommended fallow period. The likelihood of something going wrong and some ich slipping through is high. Also treating the fish for the entire fallow period puts undue stress on them

If it's all dead rock in your DT, I would pull the fish and treat them in one or multiple HTs and at the same time sterilize the DT and start over cycling it. That's gentler on the fish and if you execute everything correctly you can be sure the ich is gone.
It may also be much faster, depending on how you cycle the DT

 

[snorvich]

What ThRoewer said. Never treat in a display tank.

 

[houstonreefer20]

Sorry for asking again, but I guess I'm confused. How is removing to a HT different than keeping in a DT, when the assumption is both could have ich? (the HT 'gets' ich when I move the fish over). I can treat the fish in a HT for 6 weeks hyposalinity, or treat the fish in the DT for 6 weeks hyposalinity. I think in both cases, the fish have to go through the stress of 6 weeks hyposalinity treatement, no? (assuming 6 weeks is the correct time, I need to research further).

It's just I have 4 tangs, 2 clowns, and 5 chromis in the tank, and I dont even know where/how I'd quarantine them all. Additionally, tearing a DT to sanitize and rebuilding is a ton of work as well. It just seems more appealing to treat the full tank in hypo, and go from there?

 

[ThRoewer]

The HT needs to be set up new without using material or equipment from an infected tank. That way you know it is ich free.

Then, if you do hyposalinity, you fill the HT with a mix of RO water and saltwater to get a specific density (salinity) of 1.009 kg/L.
Only then you transfer the fish into the HT. Fish handle a drop in salinity just fine - a drip acclimatization helps, but is more required for pH, temperature and alkalinity adjustment than for a drop in salinity But when raising the salinity you got to go slow until you get to 1.016)
This way, all the ich that drops off the fish is killed before it can encyst and create new infective stages.
BTW: there is a small risk of encountering a low salinity strain of ich that will not be affected by salinities as low as 1.005 kg/L (most saltwater fish can't handle that low salinities for more than a few minutes.)

TTM would be another option to clean your fish of ich quickly that relies purely on the lifecycle of ich.
With TTM at full salinity you let the ripe parasites that drop off the fish encyst in the TTM tank but then transfer the fish to a new, clean (= ich cyst free) tank before the new infective stages can hatch.
The old tank is then sterilized by cleaning and drying it.
For TTM you ideally have 4 tanks and 4 full sets of equipment (pump, heater, ...) to avoid sterilization lapses that may happen when you do it with just 2 sets and sterilize between transfers.
There is a tiny risk of a ripe parasite encysting on the fish (typically on bony structures like a tang or surgeon fish's scalpels) and therefore hitching a ride to the next tank.

If you combine TTM and hyposalinity you basically add a second layer of safety to both methods. It is what I would do if I want to be sure my new fish don't come with ich, especially if tangs are involved.

With both methods you can have your fish ich free within 2 weeks (+1 week salinity ramp up if doing hyposalinity).
The additional time needed to cycle the DT again can be used for observation to be absolutely sure the fish are ich free

 

[houstonreefer20]

ok got it, so let me make sure I understand what you're saying:

1. You're saying that rather than doing a 6 week long hyposalinity treatment on my DT, I can to TTM and have them ich-free in 2 weeks.
2. Doing a 2 week hyposalinity/ttm method is less stressful than a 6 week hyposalinity treatment.

Correct? If so, I agree with that. The issue, however, is that there's a lot of fish involved and not sure I have the time, space ,and enough tanks for it all. Realistically, if I went down the route of a 6 week hyposalinity treatment in the DT, what can I expect, and what should I keep in mind to help increase success? Also, am I guaranteed to be ich-free after 6 weeks hypo?

 

[ThRoewer]

6 weeks may not be enough when you do it in your DT. There are ich strains that have been shown to stay encysted for almost 11 weeks, and there is no guarantee that this is even the maximum.

If you have a lot of fish you might just do hyposalinity, but in a separate HT(s) while sterilizing the DT at the same time.

 

[krullshards]

I think the confusion might be that, since the display has ich cysts on it, the only way to be sure that they are gone is to either A) leave the display fallow for as many as 11+ weeks, B) Keep salinity at 1.009 for 11+ weeks or C) Bleach the display and dry it by sterilizing it.

The time required to rid the fish of ich with either hypo or TTM is shorter than the potential 11+ weeks cyst stage of ich, so the fish can actually be brought back to a normal salinity (out of treatment) much sooner, whereas in the DT they would have to stay in hypo for the full length of time.

 

[ThRoewer]

Precisely.

And keeping fish for 11 weeks in any form of treatment is highly likely to cause losses.

 

[Boggs]

I just had an ICK problem last month, I used kick ICK and rally. It took a while but they have looked great for the last 3 weeks fingers crossed! You will spend a lot doing this. Could take 2-3 big bottles. $100 plus:headwalls:

 

[snorvich]

I just had an ICK problem last month, I used kick ICK and rally. It took a while but they have looked great for the last 3 weeks fingers crossed! You will spend a lot doing this. Could take 2-3 big bottles. $100 plus:headwalls:

Sorry, but the ich life cycle is such that lack of visible symptoms is meaning less.

 

[ThRoewer]

I just had an ICK problem last month, I used kick ICK and rally. It took a while but they have looked great for the last 3 weeks fingers crossed! You will spend a lot doing this. Could take 2-3 big bottles. $100 plus:headwalls:

Are you getting kick backs from the manufacturer to promote their useless garbage here? Kick ICK and Rally are quite literally snake oil - there is nothing in them that even harms ich, let alone kills it.
All those reef safe cures are only designed for one thing: to separate suckers from their money.

 

[snorvich]

Are you getting kick backs from the manufacturer to promote their useless garbage here? Kick ICK and Rally are quite literally snake oil - there is nothing in them that even harms ich, let alone kills it.
All those reef safe cures are only designed for one thing: to separate suckers from their money.

Exactly.

 

[kmbyrnes]

houstonreefer20, you've been given the best advice from 2 very knowledgeable reefers. Take it
Do the HT treatment of your choice - TTM or Hypo or both. Then move the fish to a QT tank while you rid your DT of any possible ich. This will be a minimum of 72 days, unless you just tear down the DT, sterilize it and restart it.
Faced with the same issue last year, I chose to restart my tank. It was cycled in far less than 72 days, and my ich-free fish were back in the DT in a little over 40 days.
Ever since, every fish get full QT process.

 

[houstonreefer20]

houstonreefer20, you've been given the best advice from 2 very knowledgeable reefers. Take it
Do the HT treatment of your choice - TTM or Hypo or both. Then move the fish to a QT tank while you rid your DT of any possible ich. This will be a minimum of 72 days, unless you just tear down the DT, sterilize it and restart it.
Faced with the same issue last year, I chose to restart my tank. It was cycled in far less than 72 days, and my ich-free fish were back in the DT in a little over 40 days.
Ever since, every fish get full QT process.

Ya, I'm sure they're experts and I really appreciate their help. I'm just a bit torn on what to do still, since my schedule is fairly busy the next few weeks and not sure I'll have time for a full tear down and re-build, let alone what HT to stick all these fish in. It wont be easy, which is why doing the full hypo treatment was so appealing

To sterilize, did you have to fully replace your live sand, and sun dry the rocks?

 

[scooter31707]

@Boggs, sorry my friend, but your fish still has ich, you just can't see it.

 

[jbvdhp]

Ya, I'm sure they're experts and I really appreciate their help. I'm just a bit torn on what to do still, since my schedule is fairly busy the next few weeks and not sure I'll have time for a full tear down and re-build, let alone what HT to stick all these fish in. It wont be easy, which is why doing the full hypo treatment was so appealing



To sterilize, did you have to fully replace your live sand, and sun dry the rocks?

You don't have to tear any thing down. You just need to leave the tank fish less for 72+ days, and it means not adding anything wet to your system. 72 days is the extreme end as a report showed it took some ich that long to come out of its encysted form.

If I were you I would do TTM and save some money on salt and target a SG of 1.008 or whatever it is, TTM doesn't take that much time, just an hour or so each time to transfer the fish, wash and dry everything. Read on it. Then yes, you need another tank for observation but the HT needs to be cycled.

 

[houstonreefer20]

You don't have to tear any thing down. You just need to leave the tank fish less for 72+ days, and it means not adding anything wet to your system. 72 days is the extreme end as a report showed it took some ich that long to come out of its encysted form.

If I were you I would do TTM and save some money on salt and target a SG of 1.008 or whatever it is, TTM doesn't take that much time, just an hour or so each time to transfer the fish, wash and dry everything. Read on it. Then yes, you need another tank for observation but the HT needs to be cycled.

Ya, but keeping all the fish in a HT for 72 days is a long time too. My core problem isnt so much the length of time it takes for TTM, it's actually the lack of space/places to hold all the fish - there are ~13 fish in the system Decisions decisions...