Ich - self resolving... ?

[greenbean36191]

Small pathogens like bacteria and virusus are vulnerable to antibodies, but how do immunity against protozoans work?

The same way. Antibodies attach to surface proteins of the protozoan, immobilizing it and marking it as a foreign body to be attacked.

I will never count on any iffy immunity against ick.

I agree 100%. There are simple and effective preventatives that are known to work. If left to chance the animal might develop immunity, or it might die. To me it doesn't make sense to risk it.

Does cryptocaryon have a known predator that eats it?

No

Could LOTS of flow in a tank help in keeping the parasite off of the fish once it becomes water-bourne?

Only very marginally. Even under conditions designed to maximize infection rates, only about 5-20% or the theronts find a fish, so success is already extremely low. Also, the theronts emerge in the wee hours of the morning when the fish are likely to be closest to the rocks or substrate where water flow is diminished.

What do you have to say about that theory?

This is not a theory- it's a fact. Different strains are known to have slight variations in size, rate of development, and reproductive potential.

There is one documented case of the parasite persisting for a bit over 10 weeks without a host. This is extremely rare though and the average life cycle of the parasite only takes 1-2 weeks from start to finish. In most cases, leaving a tank fallow for 6 weeks is more than enough time to kill off any parasites lingering in the tank, though to be absolutely sure you would have to leave the tank fallow for at least 11 weeks.

Quarantine is a different story. It would be quite easy to introduce the parasite by adding a fish that has been quarantined for 6 weeks. The assumption many people make is that if there is a latent infection, 6 weeks of quarantine will induce an outbreak. This is a poor assumption since fish can easily harbor latent infections for years, especially if they have a strong resistance to the parasite- either innate like in the case of mandarins or acquired. There is no guarantee that the quarantine process itself will induce enough stress to weaken the immune system enough to cause a latent infection to become an outbreak. Ideally, that wouldn't be the case since a well designed QT should be fairly low-stress.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I think the cleaner wrasse eats ick that is on the fish as white spots.

 

[gabbagabbawill]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15223170#post15223170 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Quarantine is a different story. It would be quite easy to introduce the parasite by adding a fish that has been quarantined for 6 weeks. The assumption many people make is that if there is a latent infection, 6 weeks of quarantine will induce an outbreak. This is a poor assumption since fish can easily harbor latent infections for years, especially if they have a strong resistance to the parasite- either innate like in the case of mandarins or acquired. There is no guarantee that the quarantine process itself will induce enough stress to weaken the immune system enough to cause a latent infection to become an outbreak. Ideally, that wouldn't be the case since a well designed QT should be fairly low-stress.

In that case, how does quarantining do anything to rid of ich? What is the point of QT if you can't guarantee results?

Does anyone have a higher success rate by not QT'ing?

In the past, I have found QT to be very difficult for the hobbyist and nothing close to "stress free".

Assuming that we cannot rid our fish of ich 100%, I wonder what the survival rate of fish with proper acclimation straight to the tank vs. proper QT is on average?

Possibly good selection and practices is just as good if not better way to combat ich and parasites than a strict QT regimen over the long run?

I know it only takes 1 sick fish to wipe a whole tank out. Makes me not ever want a tang!

 

[gabbagabbawill]

wooden- I think the cleaner wrasse eating ich is a dispelled myth.

What about cleaner shrimp? Can they eat the parasite?

 

[wooden_reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15223465#post15223465 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gabbagabbawill
wooden- I think the cleaner wrasse eating ich is a dispelled myth.

What about cleaner shrimp? Can they eat the parasite?

You may be right.

This is just discussion for fun you know. One certainly cannot apply this truth or untruth for ick control.

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The ick organism have to leave the host as a part of its lifecyle. This is how it can be eradicated. Otherwise; this whole hobby would not be rewarding even for the experienced.

Ick is really no fun. I suffered from it for the first two or three years of fish keeping. One day, in may be 1983, one LFS owner, an unusally good one, put it succintly, "Ick is a disease of the tank".

I have not seen a single case of ick in my tanks in the past 25 years.

 

[gabbagabbawill]

seems like a serious discussion for the most part... did I miss something?

 

[wooden_reefer]

Books like to emphasize the role of proper nutrition and water quality and environment for fish to combat diseases: the general promotion of immunity touting.

This is most true for internal bacterial infection such as TB.

I think this is obvious truth but too obvious truth that is improperly emphasized.

Ick has little to do with nutrition, water quality or environment, although if they are bad the situation will be even worse.

Ick is not a disease in the ocean; it is a disease in and of capitivity. It is a disease caused by the lack of the dilution effect of the ocean. This understanding calls for a certain committment by the aquarist.

 

[gabbagabbawill]

nice philosophy, I guess...

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15223453#post15223453 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gabbagabbawill
In that case, how does quarantining do anything to rid of ich? What is the point of QT if you can't guarantee results?

Does anyone have a higher success rate by not QT'ing?

In the past, I have found QT to be very difficult for the hobbyist and nothing close to "stress free".

Assuming that we cannot rid our fish of ich 100%, I wonder what the survival rate of fish with proper acclimation straight to the tank vs. proper QT is on average?

Possibly good selection and practices is just as good if not better way to combat ich and parasites than a strict QT regimen over the long run?

I know it only takes 1 sick fish to wipe a whole tank out. Makes me not ever want a tang!

That makes no sense at all.

 

[gabbagabbawill]

why not? are you joking?

 

[greenbean36191]

In that case, how does quarantining do anything to rid of ich? What is the point of QT if you can't guarantee results?

It doesn't do anything to rid the fish of ich and that's part of the problem. Many hobbyists who do quarantine do so under the notion that if a fish has a latent infection, it will somehow magically become apparent in the QT tank (usually they say that the stress of QT will make it happen). In a lot of cases this is true, but this is not a safe assumption if your goal is to have an ich-free tank.

Assuming that we cannot rid our fish of ich 100%, I wonder what the survival rate of fish with proper acclimation straight to the tank vs. proper QT is on average?

We can rid our fish of ich 100%. They simply need to be treated before they go into the tank, not simply be observed on their own for 6 weeks.

 

[gabbagabbawill]

Treated how, then? What is a known cure for it, if you can eradicate it?

How do you know 100% when/if it is eradicated?

 

[mick243]

known cures for crypt

copper
formalin
quinnine
chloroquin
hyposalinity @ less than 1.009 SG

 

[tmz]

Add the tank transfer method to the list.

Move the fish every three days to a clean tank for a total of 4 transfers. The parasites are left behind. The tank and equipment must be emptied and dried or left full of fresh water for at least 3 hours before reusing to kill any cysts in it. No meds and no stress with gentle capture quite easy in a bare qt tank.

 

[redhanded77]

what i did, and call it extreme, was a combination of methods.

i first got the QT tank down to 1.008-1.009. when i got it there, i used "quick-cure" on a daily basis for 1 week. then week 2 i used it at 50% of dosage. and to add to it, i did complete tank and water changes everyday.

it was alot of work, but i think (and i dont want to jinx anything) it might have worked. the fish are now in the display tank for 2 weeks and i havent seen anytype of signs yet. before that, a couple of the tangs were on their last days doing very horrible before the QT. now they are the healthiest fish in the tank.

i then broke down my 50g which had ich in the tank, so i could QT the fish and add them to my 180g display. the only fish that would show any signs of ich in the 50g was my kole tang. every other week, you could see him with spots. he had a very big appetite and didnt look ill besides the spots. the other fish never once showed any symptoms and have lived healthy for about 6-8 months. anyways, i caught them all and put them in QT. i treated them with quick cure and dialy tank transfers. i wasnt able to hypo them because of time constraints. i was only able to keep them in their for about 7 days until i had no choice but to add them to the display tank because of a business trip i had to go on.

they have been in the DT tank for a few days now, and so far so good. ALL of the fish are eating well and show no signs. everyday i wake up to inspect them to see if anything shows up. i really wish i could have treated them longer, but it is what it is. just wanted to share my experience.

 

[wooden_reefer]

"We can rid our fish of ich 100%. They simply need to be treated before they go into the tank, not simply be observed on their own for 6 weeks."

Yes, do not just oberve. Treat decisively from day 1 in QT against ick; otherwise you are just wasting time. You have to definitely break the cycle.

Many books do not want to say so, but otherwise is a bad mistake.

The separation method (between invertebrates and ALL fish) works, but during the six-12 weeks the fish most be treated not just observed.

 

[wooden_reefer]

If you are just starting a new fish dominant tank, you can use the DT for QT for just one time.

This is what I do.

After thorough cycle with the seed and waste method (not the gradual live-fish method), I get all the fish I want to keep in the tank. I place them all in the DT for quarantine.

I use hypo and UV for all the fish. I treat for ick for up to 12 weeks. It works for me because there is no additional work, only patience is require. It is easier to be patient when no additional work is needed. When one has to change water is when lapses occur.

The few invertebrates for the fish dominant tank are placed into a QT.

When you are just adding a fish to an established tank with fish is when the formal idea of QT applies.

You can do so (using the DT as a one-time QT) for a tank destined to be a reef tank (using a temporary filter medium), but not a DT tank that is already a reef tank with thriving live rock etc.

 

[mick243]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15229941#post15229941 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tmz
Add the tank transfer method to the list.

Move the fish every three days to a clean tank for a total of 4 transfers. The parasites are left behind. The tank and equipment must be emptied and dried or left full of fresh water for at least 3 hours before reusing to kill any cysts in it. No meds and no stress with gentle capture quite easy in a bare qt tank.

yes, I have heard that before BUT being that crypt can live in the gills where you cant see it, and it can stay there for up to about 7 days - I'd suggest that you may not be as succsessful as the other methods.


according to this article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm , ctypt "usually" stays on the fish for 3-7 days - so it *could* fall off earlier or stay on longer. it then takes 2-8 hours to settle on a hard surface where it *generally* takes 3-28 days to hatch, and 0-18 hours to reinfect a fish. - so again I'd assume there *could* be some that hatch and infect quicker than this.


would it also be possible that a crypt could fall off a fish on the first day of being in a new clean tank, hatch overnight or night 2 (yes, this would be on the very fast side of thier hatch rate) and re-infect the fish before you move it again on day 3?

question, why only 4 transfers? this give you a treatment period of 12 days, where most reccommended treatments (that actually work!) go for 4-6 weeks (3+ lifecycles of the average crypto)

perhaps for tank transfer to be more effective, it should be done every other day (or better yet, every day?) for a minimum of 2 weeks?

 

[wooden_reefer]

When one seeks an alternative, one generally wants a simplier one.

Successive tank method is a bit chancy to me. The long period of separation and treatment method works and is not difficult and is rather simple.

Just be committed to eradication of ich from day1 of the mind of the aquarist. Plan to do so includes thorough cycling.

You won't see ich again ever.

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15241679#post15241679 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mick243
yes, I have heard that before BUT being that crypt can live in the gills where you cant see it, and it can stay there for up to about 7 days - I'd suggest that you may not be as succsessful as the other methods.


according to this article http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.htm , ctypt "usually" stays on the fish for 3-7 days - so it *could* fall off earlier or stay on longer. it then takes 2-8 hours to settle on a hard surface where it *generally* takes 3-28 days to hatch, and 0-18 hours to reinfect a fish. - so again I'd assume there *could* be some that hatch and infect quicker than this.


would it also be possible that a crypt could fall off a fish on the first day of being in a new clean tank, hatch overnight or night 2 (yes, this would be on the very fast side of thier hatch rate) and re-infect the fish before you move it again on day 3?

question, why only 4 transfers? this give you a treatment period of 12 days, where most reccommended treatments (that actually work!) go for 4-6 weeks (3+ lifecycles of the average crypto)

perhaps for tank transfer to be more effective, it should be done every other day (or better yet, every day?) for a minimum of 2 weeks?

The timing of the 4 transfers, one every 3 days , is designed to catch all of the parasites while they are off the fish and before newly hatched ones can reinfest. You can search on the method for the math. It's out there somewhere.I've read it. . This is not new and is one of the proven methods. It works. Id rate it higher than hyposalinity which is often ineffective. My personal prefence is copper (cupramine) but if I'm concerned about a particular fish's potential sensitivty to that I use tank transfer.