Ich treatment with Seachem: Metronidazole vs Cupramine

[LargeAngels]

I think it sounds more like velvet than ich. Velvet comes on like a storm. When I had velvet years back and started using Cupramine the burgees was covered, I mean covered, compared to others. Others had light or no signs while burgees and emperor were covered.

Depending on when they got infected, temp. of tank and copper concentration during the last days it may be a second wave or just part of the first.

Yes, I perform water changes and just add full dose to the replacement water. Just remember to dissenfect or throw out hoses/buckets used when removing water.

 

[flameangel88]

I never had velvet so I'm not sure what to for but after asking it seems to be powder like. I don't think the burgess was like that but last night the black was pale. After another full dose this morning the copper lever was close to 0.4 and finally holding and the ich seem to be under control but water is more cloudy. For some reason ich is on the butterflies more than the other fishes. Just gave another half dose to raise the copper level.

Will work on doing a massive WC tomorrow. Is Cupramine effective against velvet?

 

[limitdown]

I understand that cupramine concentration should be kept at 0.5mg/l.

And seachem recommends keeping the skimmer on.
http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Cupramine_faq.html
"Q: I am treating my 90 Gallon tank with Cupramine. I've removed the activited charcoal and carbon and I turned off the UV and the Ozonizer. Shoud I turn off my Protein Skimmer?
A: It is perfectly acceptable and recommended to leave your skimmer on during treatment. "

Cupramine is effective in killing velvet. However, velvet moves much faster than ich in killing fish, so your fish may die before cupramine has a chance.

If you suspect velvet, do a freshwater dip as that will cause some of the velvet parasites to drop off, which will provide temporary relief for your fish. However, not all of the parasites will drop off, so you'll still need to go for cupramine. A freshwater dip is another way to tell if you have ich or velvet. Ich parasites will not drop off whereas velvet parasites will.

 

[LargeAngels]

How are the fish doing?

 

[flameangel88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13059400#post13059400 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
How are the fish doing?

Five more days to go and they are still all alive but seem stressed and not eating much. Had a massive die-off of worms so that could be part of the problem. Done a 25% WC last night so will se tonight how they do. Ich seem to have disappeared from all the fishes but I must say that all 3 butterflies were more sensitive than the others.

So far lost a couple of cukes, and 2 cherrystones (3 still alive) and the cleaner & blood shrimps are fine and sally lightfoot is moving around well.

I'll update again this weekend.

Thanks.

 

[flameangel88]

First I want to say Thank You for all the replies.

After 13 days of cupramine I used the lg Chemi-pure and poly pads to filter the copper out (have to get the coppersorb too). The tank went through 2 cycles after all the massive worm, cuke and serpent star die-off. No sign of ich and the PBT has its color back. Lost 4 of the 5 cherrystone clams but I think I still have some or all of the shrimps. All the butterflies looking good again. The lg Borbonius Anthias developed a eye infection but not sure if it was water condition related or secondary infection. I'm keeping a close eye on it.

Casualty:
Juv Regal--culpit of ich and died from the start
Male Watanabe--newly acquired and had infection on day 2 and died within a week.
4 of 5 cherrystones (two died after 11 days of Cupramine)
cukes, starfish, snails (hermit crabs are alive) and posibly all the brittle worms.
2 pistol shrimps (haven't heard the clicking noise for couple of days so presumed dead).

Unaccounted for:
1 of 6 Flame angel (hard to see all six as they always dot in-and-out of rocks.
Colini angel--last seen about 3 days ago.
Female GSM
Red lip blenny--last seen 3 days ago.
Blood Shrimps--2 of 3 (Cleaner shrimp and Sally Lightfoot are alive).


Alive:
Blue Line
Flame angels
Venustus
Blueface
Emperor
Personifer
Watanabe
Swallowtail
Bellus
Declivis
Burgess
Semilarvatus
PBT
male GSM
Dragon Goby

I'll post update with any changes to the above list.

 

[limitdown]

Hope everything goes well from here. It's a lot of work when directly treating a large tank like your 180. I've done hypo once before in my 200g FO and I don't ever want to do it again. I hope i never get ich in my display again, but if i did, I'd go for cupramine.

 

[flameangel88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13091652#post13091652 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by limitdown
Hope everything goes well from here. It's a lot of work when directly treating a large tank like your 180. I've done hypo once before in my 200g FO and I don't ever want to do it again. I hope i never get ich in my display again, but if i did, I'd go for cupramine.

Thanks. Agreed totally that treating lg tanks is very difficult and not to mention the cost with the use of Maracyn II.

Normally I'm pretty good in adding fish but due to the sensitivity of the Regal angel and the vendor stated the use Formalin in their system I allowed my guards down and only treated for flukes and next thing it was full blown ich. Trully hope this was a small price for a well learned lesson because my tank was doing relatively well before this incident.

 

[LargeAngels]

This is why I treat all fish with Prazipro and Cupramine. I always keep at least one QT tank going. Good luck.

 

[flameangel88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13091981#post13091981 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LargeAngels
This is why I treat all fish with Prazipro and Cupramine. I always keep at least one QT tank going. Good luck.

Thanks. Will definitely keep this in mind moving forward.

 

[WuHT]

Just to clarify : Your cleaner shrimp was fine during your cupramine treatment of your DT ?

 

[flameangel88]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13098176#post13098176 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WuHT
Just to clarify : Your cleaner shrimp was fine during your cupramine treatment of your DT ?

Yes, the cleaner shrimp and one of the three blood shrimp (two still unaccounted for) are fine after 13 days Cupramine treatment. All the shrimps were accounted for after 9 days. Sally Lightfoot, Blk/wht leg and Scarlet Hermits are fine.

I was told once by a lfs owner from his experience the shrimps can survive copper (as they run copper in their system and of course they tell you that your experience may vary) but not the other inverts. I'm not sure why shrimps survived because I always thought they were very sensitive to water quality and actually thought they would be the first casualty.

I overloaded one side with rocks when I added fish the last time so its kind of difficult to see everything hiding in that area and may take a few more days for them all to come out.

Update--the lg Borbonius Anthias has recovered from the eye infection.

 

[flameangel88]

The Unthinkable

The Unthinkable

Good news and Bad news.

Good news first: the Colini and lg Pistol shrimp are alive and all 6 Flame angels are accounted for.

Bad news: ich is back on the Personifer, PBT and the Borbonius have the cloudy eye again.

Apparently 13 days (butterflies was under stress otherwise I would have done longer as LargeAngels suggested) of Cupramine wasn't enough so thinking of re-administer for 21 days.

Any suggestions are welcome before I starting dosing Cupramine.

 

[e55MD]

I have some ich in my tank. I added a neon goby, several cleaner shrimp and a 2nd Emporer Aquatics 80W high output UV sterilizer. My ich has not been able to get out of control. I keep feeding food soaked in garlic and selcon. I plan to let the fish build up their own immunity.
I feel that copper is a bad idea. Your fish get stressed being captured and moved to a QT. In addition, my feeling is that copper is similar to chemotherapy in humans- it will kill the bad stuff at the same time it damages other organ systems. Copper is not good for fish long term health.
I am sure that lots of people here will disagree with me.

 

[saltyESQ]

i agree.

 

[LargeAngels]

Personally I see a big difference in an ich attack and a velvet attack. Ich seems to come on much slower, reproduce slower, slower affect on the fish and more fish are able to build up an immunity to it. Velvet on the other hand strikes hard, fast and has a much higher kill rate. I don't loose sleep over ich, but a big velvet attack is a different story.

I agree copper isn't the greatest things for fish, but there are also different types of copper medications out there. Many fish who are know to have "copper sensitivity" do extremely well being treated with Cupramine and I would not use any other copper medication.

 

[flameangel88]

Thanks for all the replies and help!

Here's an update:
After 25 days of of maintaining 0.5 level all the fish seems clear of ich so decided to do a WC and added Chemi-pure elite and Polypad to filter out the carbon. I've to look for Copper-sorb (I've to look up the name) tomorrow.

So far, the casualty after dosing Cupramine:
Fish--female GSM Clown, female Watanabe, Redlip Blenny
Invert--all the snails. worms, 2 Blood Shrimp. I still have one Blood Shrimp, Cleaner Shrimp, Pistol Shrimp and Sally Lightfoot Crab, Black & White leg Hermit and Scarlet Hermit.

I must say I'm pretty confident in using Cupramine in the future that I have 17 angels, 2 Borbonius, all 3 butterflies and PBT survived the last 6 weeks of copper treatment.

Here are a couple of pictures

Edit: forgot to mention the 5 large cherrystone clams died after the 3rd week but the fish had a couple of great meals out of it.

 

[limitdown]

Great to see that you've successfully beat ich in your DT.
And thanks for sharing pics of all the nice fish, especially the personifier/meredithi.

 

[flameangel88]

Thanks. Many sleepless nights along the way especially when the butterflies were breathing heavy.

Typo on the previous reply--I meant to say adding Chemi-pure elite and polypad to remove 'copper' and not carbon.

 

[LargeAngels]

Cupramine is great stuff.