Ich wiped my tank :( ...how long to wait??

[MrTuskfish]

I would suggest a UV sterilizer. This way you have far less worry about that happening again. you can also buy neon gobies to help keep fish clean.

Neither UV or cleaners will cure or prevent an ich infestation. In fact, I think they often give hobbyists a false sense of security---delaying real treatment. Her's some excellent info:http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1986013.

 

[RegalAngel]

IME & IMO; only a SeaChem test kit will give a consistently accurate reading of Cupramine, SeaChem makes both products.

The Salifert kit was reading correct. I used a 50g SW mix tank free of any materials that would absorb Cu and applied the amount of Cupramine to give a 0.5ppm concentration. The Salifert test kit read exactly the conc. at 0.5ppm. So, I believe I had the Cu at the levels sufficient to kill the Ich and I believe it keep it at bay for the 3 months it was in my DT. Unfortunately, it did not eliminate the Ich as it was still present on a couple of fish after 3 months of use.

The use of Quinine Sulfate eliminated the Ich in 5 days! Have never seen any spots since.

 

[RegalAngel]

National Fish Parmaceuticals just happens to make QS. this isn't a source, its an endorsement of their own product. Can you find anything from a reputable, impartial source that says QS kills ich in all stages?

Yes they sell the Quinine Sulfate and I am glad they do, as my use of QS supports their claims. I will never use anything but QS in the future for Ich especially in a QT situation.

 

[Stuart60611]

The use of Quinine Sulfate eliminated the Ich in 5 days! Have never seen any spots since.

Yes they sell the Quinine Sulfate and I am glad they do, as my use of QS supports their claims. I will never use anything but QS in the future for Ich especially in a QT situation.

This absolutely proves nothing. The fact that you have not observed crypt on your fish after treating with quinine sulfate for only 5 days does not equate to drug killing cypt in the cyst stage. First, your fish very likely still have crypt, but the infestation has been reduced to a sufficient degree that you do not see the signs of the parasites which are likely confined to gill area. Drop the temperature suddenly and substantially, and you will likely watch your fish break out again with crypt. Second, there is a chance that after treating your fish for only 5 days you managed to remove the fish from the quarantine tank while the fish still had a high enough blood level of the drug so no hatchlings from the cysts were able to attach to your fish and survive. Neither scenario supports your bald assertion that the drug kills the parasite while in its cyst stage.

Read the below which clearly indicates that chemical treatments do not kill crypt in the cyst stage. There are countless articles and even scientific studies which also state the same. The people at National Fish Pharmacy do not know what they are talking about. They have been spreading rumors for years about a crypt parasite which is resistant to copper treatment. There is not a single scientific study, article, or other publication which supports this plainly falsified information designed to boost sales. Just another false rumor to add to the confusion about this parasite. The quinine based drugs are great and can be very effective against crypt. However, there is no need to falsely exagerate what they are capeable of achieving.

http://www.fishgeeks.com/fishforums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50455

 

[RegalAngel]

This absolutely proves nothing. The fact that you have not observed crypt on your fish after treating with quinine sulfate for only 5 days does not equate to drug killing cypt in the cyst stage. First, your fish very likely still have crypt, but the infestation has been reduced to a sufficient degree that you do not see the signs of the parasites which are likely confined to gill area. Drop the temperature suddenly and substantially, and you will likely watch your fish break out again with crypt. Second, there is a chance that after treating your fish for only 5 days you managed to remove the fish from the quarantine tank while the fish still had a high enough blood level of the drug so no hatchlings from the cysts were able to attach to your fish and survive. Neither scenario supports your bald assertion that the drug kills the parasite while in its cyst stage.
Read the below which clearly indicates that chemical treatments do not kill crypt in the cyst stage. There are countless articles and even scientific studies which also state the same. The people at National Fish Pharmacy do not know what they are talking about. They have been spreading rumors for years about a crypt parasite which is resistant to copper treatment. There is not a single scientific study, article, or other publication which supports this plainly falsified information designed to boost sales. Just another false rumor to add to the confusion about this parasite. The quinine based drugs are great and can be very effective against crypt. However, there is no need to falsely exagerate what they are capeable of achieving.

http://www.fishgeeks.com/fishforums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50455

First, I want to make it clear that I treated both fishes in a QT AND fishes in a 300g DT system for Ich. Removing the fishes after a 6 day treatment in the QT was perfect for ensuring that the Ich or cysts did not go along for the move.

The treatment in the 300g DT was for 10 days with QS and at this point there has been no reinfection. If the cysts were not killed then why no Ich?
Maybe I just got lucky?

I am providing my evidence on the use of QS based on actual results, and the claims that QS kills ALL stages of Marine Ich are from
Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhD
c/o National Fish Pharmaceuticals

Dr. Brian G. Aukes; PhD [nationalfishpharm@yahoo.com]

If you wish to repute his claims go ahead and contact him for further information.

 

[spieszak]

No. there is no reason to (and a lot of work) hypo the DT, I assume you'r talking about the DT going fallow) and it will kill tiny inverts in the LR. If the newly "hatched" ich parasites can't find a fish host, they die. Period.

Thanks for the follow up. I have (knock on wood) never had to deal with it, but have always wondered if a two prong approach was safer, or overkill.

 

[RegalAngel]

Read the below which clearly indicates that chemical treatments do not kill crypt in the cyst stage.

http://www.fishgeeks.com/fishforums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50455

Here is what the Forum referenced above states:

Life Cycle:

Cryptocaryon irritans is a parasite with a direct life cycle, i.e. requiring no intermediate host like an invertebrate to complete its life cycle. The time per generation is temperature dependent, ranging from a few days for tropical to a week or more. If one considers the possibility of "resting stages", marine ich can wait out weeks to months before seeking out fish hosts.

A) Starting with a stage feeding (call trophonts) on its fish host. These are embedded below the epithelium (upper living skin layers) of host fishes, under copious amounts of mucus, not affected by chemical treatments.

We know that QS does in fact kill the Ich parasite on the fish, so this assertion is false and totally causes the entire thread to be suspect as to its validity.


B)Protomont stage leaves the fish, drops to the bottom and forms a resting/developmental cyst (tomont) stage persisting for 3-30 days generally. Becomes attached to and transmissible by any wet object. For about a day at 78 degrees F. reproduction occurs by binary fission; that is, by each cell dividing into two, possibly producing two hundred individuals (then called theronts). These encysted stage individuals are not affected by chemical treatments.

After what was said above in A), I suspect this assertion as well.

C) After 3-7 days, as tomites or theronts they break out of the cyst (typically at night, when reef fishes are often "sitting on the bottom") and swim into the water in search of a host fish, in a to several hours to a day or two at elevated temperatures they must find a fish host or die. If the parasite is lucky (and its host fish not so) it will find a host and burrow into its skin or gills. This "free-living" swimming stage is the opportune moment for chemical treatment.

 

[snorvich]

What is in the tank at this point?

If nothing then treat with Quinine Sulfate for 5 days at 1/4 tsp/10gal...Ich will be killed at this point and you can add fish.

When I was doing research on treatments, I found that Quinine products were the first medications used in many tropical fish ailments -- especially marine fishes. What happened in the USA is that the real good ones became only available by prescription. This is not something most hobbyists could get their hands on.

Now, some off the shelf medications do contain some quinine ingredients in low quantities.

Chloroquine diphosphate was the choice medication for treating Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) which is usually fatal to an entire tank. The downsides of these drugs is that they only affect the parasite in its dinospore phase. This is of significance because copper not only affects the dinospore, but also the tomont division. Thus copper is a better choice for most people for cryptocaryon irritans. Other downsides include the cost and the fact that these drugs are devastating to bacteria (the biological filter will stop, whereas with copper, the biological may continue) and invertebrates (which is very similar to copper). The last downside is that the hobbyist cannot measure the amount of drug in the water, whereas of course, the copper can be controlled by common test kits. For me, this is the absolute constraint that keeps me from considering it even in a tank swap treatment scheme.

As a treatment for the hobbyists' marine life, it has the disadvantages noted above. But as a prophylactic it is very disadvantaged since it can also kill off the norma flora of bacteria inside the fish's digestive track. My viewpoint, while very controversial to some is that one should not treat prophylactically but only observe in quarantine. This causes the fish to lack effective digestion of its food, even leading to death if these bacteria can't recover. It is essential when treating fish to provide their immune system maximal nutrition while providing the parasite itself the most lethal environment.

I can't think of any good reason to use these drugs considering the other medications available. I put this together with my opinion that treating fishes with prophylactic drugs is an unnecessary and undesirable stressor. I do treat all fishes with Prazipro, however.

Let your tank be fallow for a minimum of six weeks.

 

[RegalAngel]

When I was doing research on treatments, I found that Quinine products were the first medications used in many tropical fish ailments -- especially marine fishes. What happened in the USA is that the real good ones became only available by prescription. This is not something most hobbyists could get their hands on.

Now, some off the shelf medications do contain some quinine ingredients in low quantities.

Chloroquine diphosphate was the choice medication for treating Marine Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) which is usually fatal to an entire tank. The downsides of these drugs is that they only affect the parasite in its dinospore phase. This is of significance because copper not only affects the dinospore, but also the tomont division. Thus copper is a better choice for most people for cryptocaryon irritans. Other downsides include the cost and the fact that these drugs are devastating to bacteria (the biological filter will stop, whereas with copper, the biological may continue) and invertebrates (which is very similar to copper). The last downside is that the hobbyist cannot measure the amount of drug in the water, whereas of course, the copper can be controlled by common test kits. For me, this is the absolute constraint that keeps me from considering it even in a tank swap treatment scheme.

As a treatment for the hobbyists' marine life, it has the disadvantages noted above. But as a prophylactic it is very disadvantaged since it can also kill off the norma flora of bacteria inside the fish's digestive track. My viewpoint, while very controversial to some is that one should not treat prophylactically but only observe in quarantine. This causes the fish to lack effective digestion of its food, even leading to death if these bacteria can't recover. It is essential when treating fish to provide their immune system maximal nutrition while providing the parasite itself the most lethal environment.

I can't think of any good reason to use these drugs considering the other medications available. I put this together with my opinion that treating fishes with prophylactic drugs is an unnecessary and undesirable stressor. I do treat all fishes with Prazipro, however.

Let your tank be fallow for a minimum of six weeks.

Nice Copy Job!
http://www.reefland.com/forum/marin...t/24932-chloroquine-phosphate.html#post181908


I can't comment on the use of Chloroquine diphosphate, but with respect to a different quinine, Quinine Sulfate.........
1) Quinine Sulfate has NO affect on the biological filter;
2) Quinine Sulfate kills the parasite free swimming and on the fish and according to Dr. Brian Aukes, it kills the cyst stage as well.
3) It is very affordable.
4) The amount to use has been well documented by may users of QS, and there is no need to measure it in the water. I had no negative effects with my fishes.

I did use Cupramine for 3 monts with no remedy for the Ich, and I decided to try QS with excellent results.

Quinine FAQ: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm

 

[EllisJuan]

Right now my tank has a pretty large clean up crew, three shrimp, frogspawn, leathers, and zoas. I guess there is nothing I can treat the tank with to speed up the process and not harm anything else in the tank.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Right now my tank has a pretty large clean up crew, three shrimp, frogspawn, leathers, and zoas. I guess there is nothing I can treat the tank with to speed up the process and not harm anything else in the tank.

You guessed right. Patience.