I'm a glutton (two hard fishes)

[sprintermike]

Ok, I know I'm a glutton, but as part of an effort to get my post total up to 50 I'm going to be chronicling (sp?) my efforts to train an orange spotted filefish and a green mandarin to pellets.
For those of you "in the know" you will know that both have been done before. I have done a lot of research on the web trying to get details. Stories have been easy to come by but details have not, so that is what I am going to try to provide, details.
More to come tomorrow!

 

[sprintermike]

Setup & fish:
So, I had been planning on trying this in the future (not quite yet), but when I walked into my LFS the other day, they had almost exactly the fishes I was looking for.
I don't have any experience with green mandarins, but my plan was to pick up a large male who was nice & fat. The reason for this was 1. I like the way they look and 2. Hoping the fat stores would give me time to transition to new foods. The fish I bought was a large male. He was NOT fat, but wasn't too thin. Not yet emaciated.
The also had a smaller harlequin/orange spotted filefish. He was in relatively good shape. I have seen a very few fat ones for sale but mostly I've seen thin or emaciated. This little one was just starting to look thin.
For he setup I bought a standard ten gallon tank with a top and a HOB filter. I bought the smalles one the store had (for 10-20 gallons), but in hindsight I should had shopped around for a super small, pico type filter.
I left the bottom bare and added one small piece of LR in a corner. Another hindsight...I should have asked the store for a coral skeleton...the filefish like to sleep in them.
For lighting I bought the exoctic (sp?) LED white strip. This is going to go with some more led strips in the future that will eventually light my red sea max. On a side note, the straight white strip did not provide very good colors on the zoa's on the rock, when compared to the stock lighting from the red sea. Hopefully it will look better with multiple blue led's added on.
Took this all home to setup....
More tomorrow.

 

[Sheol]

Do you have a large population of pods? If you get a Mandarin you will need this, and a refugium to culture more of 'em! Mandarins don't usually survive long on commercial fish foods.
As for the OS filefish? You should know that that one is considerd a very advanced fish ( more like "Best left in the Wild fish"!).
Is this your first SW tank?

Sincerely,
Matthew

 

[zukharla]

Wait, is that tank you bought going to be the QT or their permanant home? The tank needs to cycle well before any fish get introduced, let alone something like a Mandarin that needs a huge population of pods, like Sheol said.

 

[Drjusc00]

If you go with the OS filefish, your best bet is to get them from the Divers Den. They QT these fish and get them eating before they sell them. They give you a refund if the fish dies within 14 days also.

Warning: when they do offer these fish, they go fast!

 

[sprintermike]

Sheol & zuk,
This tank will be their "training" tank, where they learn to eat pelleted food.
The plan is to have these two fish be the only inhabitants of my red sea max (mixed reef) once they are eating pellets.
Once that is done, this 10g will be converted to a refugium/frag grow out area for the 33 gallon rsm.

 

[sprintermike]

Days 1 & 2
One thing I forgot to mention was that I also bought a floating "feeding station" so i can eventually get them used to the idea of coming to one place to eat.
The tank was set up & the fish were drip acclimated. The water was diluted down to a low spec gravity to help the fish combat any diseases (prob about 1.19).
Their first meal was that evening. The filter/pump was turned off and live brine was added to the tank, at the same time I put a few spectrum small size pellets at the feeding station. I'm certain the fish didn't see them, but I'm hoping there was a little bit of "smell" from the pellets that hit the water. I'm trying to produce associations in the fish.
The filefish took a minute or two and then ate a brine out of the water column. He ate several more, all the time looking a bit akward. Anyone who knows heir natural history knows they are not typically predators.
The mandarin picked up his activity level and swam around the tank looking interested but never pecked at anything.
On Day two, the filefish continued to eat brine out of the column when it was added. Still looking akward with the hunting. I did notice he ate a few (2-3) brine that were dead (not swimming). Hopefully he'll be ready for frozen foods soon. On one of the afternoon feedings (I'm feeding this pair 3-5 times/day), the filefish had a fairly significant defecation, se he must have had a decent food input.
I am typically adding a lot of brine & leaving the pump off for 30 min - hour.
On day two, in the afternoon, the mandarin ate a few live brine. He mostly got the slow movers who were still pulsating but were laying on the bottom. He did peck one or two brine out of the water column but they were in the bottom 1-2 inches of water.
Overall, I'm happy with this. I have heard of some people who could never get their mandarin to eat one brine.

 

[small alien]

Well, you sound like you're trying to do your research and think things through and that is commendable. The post count comment makes you sound a little goofy. And, well, you just sound so new for such a challenging project. Good luck.

 

[Sheol]

Yeah, that is exactly the impression I got Small Alien. LOL. But it does seem he is trying to do it right.

Matthew

 

[romanr]

Pics are a requirement! Best of luck with your project note that several of us in this forum have thriving OSFF and we can be used as a resource. Some with OSFFs cheated(me) by getting the Diver's Den ones as some one else mentioned. Mine are pigs and will eat just about anything they can fit in their snouts. Here is a good read with a link to Matt Pedersen's work on breading these bad boys.
http://www.bluezooaquatics.com/resources.asp?show=371

 

[small alien]

Indeed. Good luck. I don't mean to be negative.

 

[namxas]

Actually, I'm not so sure that DD offers the 14-day on "expert only" fish, but rather an "arrive alive" guarantee, but I could be wrong.

Renee has actually weaned a pair of OSFF onto prepared foods, and I have to say that out of all the "special needs" fish we've kept, I've never seen her work as hard as she did with these fish.

Your best bet would be to get some "browned-out" acro frags or colonies so your fish has at least SOME food available while you're working with it. Get a coral skeleton and smear it with food...try a gel-based food first (Tubastrea is great because it has "cups" to hold the food). Put the skeleton in the fridge for a bit so the food sets up and add it to the tank near the live acro frag. Hopefully, the fish will begin to pick at it.

Other foods that work well for most folks are roe (Nutramar Ova), mysis, BS+, shaved salmon, NLS pellets, etc.

Once you get the fish weaned, they simply need LOTS of food (all day availability is best). We feed NLS pellets during the day, and they get one or more of the other foods each evening when I make the rounds of our tanks.

Water quality is HUGE with these fish, esp. considering the amount of food you'll be feeding them in the beginning.

 

[small alien]

Also Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef Flakes. Mine are nuts for them.

 

[sprintermike]

Thanks to all for the encouragement. My first post on RC was probably in 2002ish, so I have a few years experience. I have successfully gotten several OSFF onto frozen foods in the past (shortly after matt p had his success), then sold or traded them, but this mission is different. The goal here is pellets!
Days 3 & 4:
Day 3 continued the same for the osff, with a little less akwardness on the hunting part.
On day 3, the mandarin ate quite a bit of live brine and a few dead ones. This gives me hope of at least getting to frozen foods.
I also tried a new technique that may have been done before but I'm going to call the "brine popsicle" method. No freezing or any low temperatures, I just take a wedge of filter pad and swish it around in the brine until a lot of them get "stuck" on it, then I put it in the tank, where it sinks to the bottom. I am even considering putting this on the entire, or perhaps half, of the tank floor. It would trap the thrashing brine at the bottom and make them easy pickins for the mandarin.
Of course, I still put a few pellets in every time I put in brine.
Day 4 was Easter and these guys were only fed twice, but I can say it was a good day. The second feeding produced what I would really call a "feeding response". They were up and looking for food after I turned off the pump and opened the top but before I got any food out or added it to the tank. My guess is, if you can get a fish to the point where, responsively, he knows that what comes into the tank in the next 10 seconds is food, you can break a lot of feeding "habits" that are believed to be rules.

 

[small alien]

Fair enough, sprintermike. You threw us with the post count comment. My osff eat pellets well but only if they're soaked in the thaw juice from either mysis or prawn roe. I let it soak for 10 minutes or so and then smoosh it up a bit into kind of a past and then release it into the tank over a power head so it sprays tiny pieces everywhere. Then I turn off the flow for 10-15 minutes as they love to pick off the bottom. Great success with this. Pellets were the second food for my pair after roe. They never have eaten the mysis and brine that DD said they were. But they eat about 5 other foods.

 

[sprintermike]

I will try to get some pics or maybe some video up over the weekend.
Days 5, 6, & 7:
Day 5 continues the same for both fish. The filefish pecks at some frozen food floating down in the water column (not sure what type, I have been offering multiple types at once). No other major changes.
Day 6 sees the mandarin peck at some frozen food on the bottom and swallow it, but this almost seems to be an accident. On previous and future days, he will eat live brine that have gotten stuck on a piece of frozen food, and then swallow the brine and spit out the frozen food. The mandarin does have a long thin defacation today. Not the best looking if I am trying to asses and say he is at least getting an adequate calorie count (if not total nutrition).
Day 7 has no major changes except for a few observations....A long thick poop on the bottom of the tank makes me think the mandarin has gotten enough food to pass a significant stool...I think I am getting pretty close to totally meeting the calorie needs of these fish. I generally turn off the pumps and then feed, leaving the pumps off for an hour. If I add any more brine at the end of the hour, I see almost zero interest. Usually, there are still a few swimming around the tank from the first feeding.
I can see that the mandarin and the file are going to be moving at totally different speeds. I may end up getting seperate tanks for them.
I think I may get one of those "dishes" that sits on the bottom and that has a tube that goes up to the surface which allows you to esentially put food in at the top and it lands in a feeding tray at the bottom. I think this may be the best bet for the mandarin as it will keep the food concentrated in one area.
I will probably try frozen mysids for the mandarin. A LFS guy has a green that eats them and I've heard of, and seen video, many others that eat this.
I saw another osff at the store...of course, I thought "get another one!"
This one, however, was not in as good of shape as mine. A good spot to look is above the eye. If that is sunken in, or you can see the "cheek bone" the fish is likely too far gone to try and save.
Tomrrow...water change!

 

[small alien]

How are the fish doing, sprintermike?

 

[sprintermike]

Whew, sorry for the delay. I missed a lot of days here so I'll just hit the highlights...
Day 8 - water change. Starting the second half of today, I am switching to offering frozen spirulina enriched brine only, no more mix of frozen foods. I am turning off the pumps, offering the frozen brine first, then adding live brine about half an hour later.
Day 9 - osff pecks at frozen brine in the water column
Day 10 - osff wholeheartedly eats frozen brine off of the floor of the tank. Does not eat it from the water column. He is so full by the time the live brine comes in, I only see him eat a few.
Day 11 - change out small piece of LR in tank (the zoas on it didn't like the conditions), for a new chunk from the store. Mandarin immediately begins to eat on the new population of copepods.
Day 12 - trying frozen mysis instead of frozen brine based on recommendations (local and online). Osff & mandarin eat none of it.
Day 13 - no one eats any frozen mysis
Day 14 - brack to frozen enriched brine, osff immediately back onto it, no interest from the mandarin
Day 17 - mandarin all of a sudden starts to eat frozen brine! Not just a little either! He doesn't approach it like he has approached living organisms ( kind of a "hunt" with head turned sideways looking at prey, instead he just strolls up and sucks it up, i didn't know he knew it was there)
Day 18 - both fish chowing down on frozen brine (spirulina enriched). Few live brine offered.
Day 19 - same as 18 but no live brine offered
Day 20 - same as 19. Everyone is looking good!

I think I'll hold here for about a week and then offer nls pellets (small) first, then frozen after 30 minutes.

 

[small alien]

Great. I'd try cyclopse, prawn roe and prime reef flakes as next foods for the osff.

 

[Sheol]

Nice to hear it, please keep us updated as to your progress, ok?

Matthew