Improve the Hobby by demanding a Livestock Guarantee

[aquaticvet1]

I think what is important is to realize is that this hobby does not exist in the perfect world.

All fish and coral cannot be dropshipped, all cannot be conveniently purchased at retail and---- etail and concepts such as DiversDen have their limitations. It is the three together that provide the hobbyist with choices. Whatever happened to coexisting and letting the hobbyist determine what is right for their situation? Here is where I am promoting, on behalf of the hobby, not the industry.
In my very own house my college boys have aquariums made up of fish and coral from many sources. They even have purchased from LFS stores that are not mine.

No one entity supplies all things to the hobby. We all have our strengths and limitations.

What I do believe though is that the hobbyist deserves better and they are an important entity within the trade. The industry should not shape the hobby but rather the hobby should demand that as an industry we cater to them. They deserve a choice be it retail, etail or a hybrid such as Diver's Den.

My life will be spent from here on out as an advocate for the hobby NOT the industry. Just a choice that I am making. The guarantee concept even with it's limitations is a personal initiative. I believe in it.

Lastly, I encourage every hobbyist to purchase livestock where they choose. LiveAquaria.com is but one source. There are many others and exploring them is part of what makes this hobby fun. I am on your side whether you purchase from me or not and as I mentioned--- even my own kids did not buy all of their livestock from me.

For future discussions, please let's stay focused on the guarantee concept as that is what this thread is about.

Thanks, Race

 

[aquaticvet1]

Jenn,
I clearly stated that a good local fish store with a guarantee is better than a good etailer with the same guarantee. I want the retailers to get on board and support the hobby.
No question that may hurt my sales but this is about the consumer having things better------ not me. I am willing to sacrifice sales for what I believe in and--- the hobbyist deserves it.

Race

 

[aquaticvet1]

I want to say it one more time " a good local fish store with a guarantee is better than an etailer with the same guarantee"
Race Foster, October, 2007.

Why, personal service that the web cannot offer. I make no bones about it. NONE!!

Retailers, please offer the hobby a proper guarantee on their hard earned money. That is all I am asking. And customers you should demand it.

 

[sirjohn]

I read Race's post with amusement, because I have often thought exactly the same thing. Most of the brick and mortal and online tropical fish and coral business today appears to be stuck back in the "middle-ages" when "caveat emptor" was the norm and stores hung up signs everywhere screaming "ALL ITEMS SOLD "AS IS". ALL SALES FINAL. NO REFUNDS, NO EXCHANGES", etc. Thank God for consumer advocates back then--even lawyers! --that "helped" (or forced) retail businesses into providing consumer protections. Can you imagine if Best Buy, Circuit City, the Home Depot or some other large retailer did away with their return policy and hung up those signs all over their stores? They wouldn't last too long. Yet too much of the tropical fish and coral industry has chugged along while offering little or no consumer protections. "You bought it, it's now your problem" is their "consumer protection". Let the buyer beware indeed.

The reason they can get away with this is because hobbysts, for the most part, have LET them get away with it by not demanding they offer a guarantee. This, as I see it, is the point of Race's post and he is right, as hard of a pill as it may be to swallow for the LFS and online retailers that do not offer a guarantee.

Of course, Race is also in the game, and already offers a 14-day guarantee, so I understand the tendency by some in the business to view his post as tongue-in-cheek or disingenuous. Some might say Race knows the LFS and online retailers won't meet his challenge and offer a 14-day guarantee, thereby indirectly increasing the sales at liveaquaria.com which does offer that guarantee. I prefer to give Race the benefit of the doubt, but EVEN IF he was being disingenuous, it doesn't bother me in the least. That's the beauty of competition and a free-market economy in the greatest country in the world.

Funny thing is, Race is right, if the LFS fish stores offered the same guarantee AND quality of fish at a comparable price (another discussion altogether) I, for one, would likely buy the fish at my LFS. Shipping charges being what they are, it would not make sense otherwise.

 

[Freed]

Race, how do I get hold of you if you don't take PMs or e-mail. I have an issue on another topic I hope you can answer.

 

[aquaticvet1]

I ask that all personal correspondence go through our regular email system at Liveaquaria.com. Thanks ! I travel some between ventures so personal answers can be delayed a bit.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Very nice and professional post by sirjohn---Thank you.

 

[crazedreefer]

Why hold the LFS responsible?

The wholesalers offer no guarantee to LFS stores...That is like Target buying TV's from Sony and Sony does not offer a warranty on the TV but consumers expect Target to offer a warranty for that TV, it does not work that way...Now, put that on a much smaller scale where it is not Target but a small mom and pop store that do not have the giant customer base and profit margins that a big box store has...

So not sure why LFS should take the entire brunt of this post and comment from Dr. Race

 

[aquaticvet1]

With a lull in the action on this thread I am going to take this opportunity to wrap my correspondence up.

I believe that a guarantee on livestock is not as outlandish as some may think.

In the purebred dog and cat world, as well as performance equine and bulls, guarantees are the norm. Rarely, are these sold without a guarantee against defects, generally medical and inherited. Fact is many of these actually cost less than a fish or coral.

Let's compare in general terms. Gem tang, $3,000, purebred dogs $1,500.00, cats 800.00 and angus bulls 4,000.00. There are three "items" here that most would never purchase without some kind of written guarantee to protect their investment.

You guessed it --Why exempt the tang ? To buy that fish without a guarantee is in my opinion not a wise use of money. It is your money, do as you choose, but I would not do it for a hobby.

There was a time when cats, dogs, bulls and stallions were sold without guarantees, but not today. Surprisingly, all four are now heavily sold via the internet. Fish and coral are now following the trend and the guarantee should as well, both at retail and etail.

I hope that I provoked some thought and I appreciated all of your feedback. As I need to move on, my input on this thread will end. At another time I will provide more insight.

Thanks, Race

 

[JennM]

Well said, crazed!

In my situation I have a "set" guarantee - not 14 days. I usually preface the guarantee with a polite request to test the customer's water and I ask questions to make sure the animal is going to a suitable home. Assuming that's all well and good, if the creature perishes unexpectedly, and even after the guarantee expires, as a gesture of goodwill I'll make it right with the customer. I don't always bear the whole brunt, but I usually come to something mutually agreeable with the customer - after all, I want to keep them happy.

However if the customer returns with a claim and their water quality is bad - why should I, the retailer, pay for their mistake?

If I did that - unconditional replacement, then prices might have to go up in order to compensate for *my* losses. Then every conscientious customer would have to pay for the carelessness of the few that don't do it right. That hurts everyone.

If a LFS has a good supply and good protocol, the 'guarantee' issue is moot. One could argue that if it *is* moot, then I should just go ahead and offer it anyway since it would likely be a 'non-issue' however my argument against that is that it would attract people with the 'disposable fish' mentality. I don't need or want that type of clientele. I've put years into educating people and being proactive, and that's how I plan to keep doing business.

Like I said before, I put my effort into the front end of the deal. Race puts his effort into the back end. The result *should* be about the same - healthy specimens in healthy tanks. I just have a heck of a lot less paperwork resulting!

Jenn

 

[JennM]

Race, you're comparing apples and bowling balls. Comparing purebred cattle or domestic pets is hardly the same as comparing wild-caught fish under the same "guarantee".

For starters, pedigeed animals come with..... drumroll.... a PEDIGREE. People go to great lengths and expense to breed this one to that one for desired traits, and bloodlines can be accurately traced for many generations. Add to that, veterinarians' examinations, DNA tests, genetic testing and the myriad of other things that can be done to a mammal to ensure its health and gene pool as well as ascertaining its health.

With a wild caught fish, it comes with no birth certificate. No pedigree. No track record of how any particular individual does under captive conditions. I don't see anybody doing blood work, any sort of pathology (not even a cyanide detection test!) or anything else except a (hopefully) trained eyeball and empirical observation and maybe a prophylactic disease protocol or quarantine period. At best we have information about how a specie *typically* does in captivity and its likelihood to survive in captivity. Even at that, individuals don't always follow the textbooks - as anybody who's ever encountered aggression between species that *should* get along, or no aggression between individuals that "shouldn't" get along can attest.

If you're going to make a comparison, please, at least make a legitimate one.

Jenn

 

[JennM]

And just to add one final note... anybody with money can buy a pedigreed animal for thousands of dollars. Not everybody can or will take care of it properly.

Visit a local humane society - you'll see plenty of purebred dogs and cats (as well as mongrels) up for adoption, and plenty have come from abusive or neglectful situations. Getting a critter with proverbial blue blood doesn't mean it will thrive under adverse conditions.

I somehow doubt a breeder would guarantee an animal that was neglected or abused after it left the breeder's care, custody and control. That champion bulldog won't be a champion anymore if it isn't fed or otherwise cared for properly.

That can be compared evenly with fish - guaranteed or otherwise - it can leave a LFS or etailer's care in perfect health, but if it's placed in a putrid or inappropriately sized tank, not fed or otherwise cared for, it's 'pedigree' or 'guarantee' or whatnot, isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Jenn

 

[aquaticvet1]

Jenn, this needs to be my last post but you may go on.

Because we cannot do blood tests, radiographs and fish have an unknown pedigree is WHY the buyer needs some protection. You and I both are selling them a specimen that it best--- is a pig in a poke. In many cases we do not even know how old it is, let alone guess at it's health. I am a trained animal health specialist and cannot do it and I will admit that to all of my customers. Fish health is nothing but an educated guess with no medical documentation of any kind to back it up. In other species we have those options and still provide guarantees,---- that was my point.

I think that we both are doing the best we can but I feel that the buyer deserves some protection. A 14 day guarantee only provides "some" for 14 days. I think we should share the burden of this non-exact science we call fish health.

Thank you everyone-Race

 

[JennM]

Race - I'm not disagreeing with you concerning protecting the customer's investment. I just don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge that we both have some similar goals, but we both take a different approach to achieving that.

Jenn

 

[crazedreefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10910418#post10910418 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by aquaticvet1
With a lull in the action on this thread I am going to take this opportunity to wrap my correspondence up.

I believe that a guarantee on livestock is not as outlandish as some may think.

In the purebred dog and cat world, as well as performance equine and bulls, guarantees are the norm. Rarely, are these sold without a guarantee against defects, generally medical and inherited. Fact is many of these actually cost less than a fish or coral.

Let's compare in general terms. Gem tang, $3,000, purebred dogs $1,500.00, cats 800.00 and angus bulls 4,000.00. There are three "items" here that most would never purchase without some kind of written guarantee to protect their investment.

You guessed it --Why exempt the tang ? To buy that fish without a guarantee is in my opinion not a wise use of money. It is your money, do as you choose, but I would not do it for a hobby.

There was a time when cats, dogs, bulls and stallions were sold without guarantees, but not today. Surprisingly, all four are now heavily sold via the internet. Fish and coral are now following the trend and the guarantee should as well, both at retail and etail.

I hope that I provoked some thought and I appreciated all of your feedback. As I need to move on, my input on this thread will end. At another time I will provide more insight.

Thanks, Race

WRONG!!!!!! It is funny that you do not even touch on the wholesaler thing that I brought up...because you know it blows your whole case out of the water...Also using a Gem Tang as an example is a very bad example, because that is not the norm for people who purchase fish, the norm is a 20-80 dollar fish...The norm is purebred dogs and most people spend 1000+ to get that dog and if they do not want to spend that, they go to the pound...so until 80% of the hobby is spend 3k on a gem tangs, you can not make this comparison....

Also with your whole purebred animal thing which does not address the most important part, that everyone who is involved with that animal, offers a guarantee and most people who sell that animal are the only ones who it passes through and if there is a middle man, they offer a guarantee because who they bought it from offers a guarantee...So until wholesalers and transshippers offer a guarantee for their fish and animals they sell, it is not a stores responsibility like you claim it should be...

This was purely a marketing ploy to talk bad about anyone who does not offer a guarantee in hopes of drumming up more business...

You end your feedback because you know you are now on the hook and a legitimate point is brought up and people are not jumping on the band wagon of being super cheap and expecting a guarantee when the people selling the initial product do not offer one...you bow out.

Again, I think there should be guarantees by everyone who makes money on that animal, coral, fish invert what ever the case may be ...and until that happens no one can put this on any LFS...

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

Doc,
Exelent post. I've often wonderd why I could not get a 14 day guarantee on SW fish and corals but yet the LFS will give one on FW fish. Your right, it's time to change the mentality.

AS for Qm, I've been to their facility down by LAX and yes it it set up nicely. I guess I'm a bit lucky in that the majority of my LFS drive down there to had pick their fish so I tend to get a better selection. Also we are starting to se more hobiest taking over the mom and pop stores around here so maybe that will help some.

Jenn,
I'm gla dto se that you as a store owner are doing what you do with new arrivals. unfortunatly, I do beleive you are in the minority. I've seen way too many LFS bring in their new specimens and just drop them in the tank ready for sale. If there were LFS in my area that practice quaritene like you do, then I would not bother with asking for a guarantee as I could be assured that you had already takne the best care of the specimen that you could in insureing a healthy one before placing it up for sale. But as I said, I do beleive your in the minority as far as LFS go.

We have our work cut out for us. A lot of this mentality is a carry over from way back in the 70's when I first got into SW tanks. At that time, very little was know about how to care for SW fish. But with the advancements we have made in the hobby, it's time to make the change and start to guarantee the SW fish in the same manner that they do with their FW fish.

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

crazedreefer,
Have you ever been to QM? Do you even know who owns QM? Maybe you should do a little research on the company before you go Bashing the good doctor.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Crazedreefer,
I missed your point in your first post, sorry.

The Wholesaler issue has nothing to do with the hobbyist. That issue is between you and the Wholesaler, not the consumer. There is nothing stopping you or me from asking Wholesalers for a guarantee. I have found that they happily credit me for any fish and coral which I am not satisfied with. Not really an issue as far as I am aware. You may need a better Wholesaler.

Again, has nothing to do with consumer protection as that is an industry issue.

And no, I did not bow out because of your post. I have a meeting which I must attend. Sorry--Race

 

[JennM]

Nicely said, Crazed

Blown63chevy:

I've been a hobbyist for over 20 years. I've seen my share of good *and* bad LFS in my day. I've also been in the trade for over 7 years now, 5 1/2 of those years in business for myself.

I see plenty of tales of this crappy LFS and that one - the bottom line is, as a businessperson, if I were buying sick fish and not housing them properly and/or moving them out as fast as I could before they died, I wouldn't be here very long.

I see so many people slamming LFS - but the truth is, how many hobbyists actually visit a wholesale facility? Now you've stated that you've been to QM - fair enough... I've seen good *and* bad wholesale facilities too - thing is, when you're buying a drop-shipped creature, you have no idea what kind of conditions it came from.

Race has sung the praises of QM - that's fine, I have no cause to doubt him. He's also stated here and there that he uses 5 wholesalers and in other posts he's mentioned that he has used most of the Los Angeles wholesalers (if not all?). So if that critter you ordered isn't in stock at QM and didn't go through the protocol, who is to say your order didn't get picked at a random LA wholesaler who happened to have what you wanted on that day?

I'm not presuming to know how Race's business works - however IMO that possibility exists. At least when you see something firsthand, you have a bit of an idea where it has been recently and what kind of care it has received. If it comes from an 'alternative' wholesaler it's a crapshoot, IMO, and you have no way to verify anything. Sure - it's guaranteed, so why give a darn?

That's my point - why give a darn?

I give a darn... my customers know it and my livestock shows it.

Jenn

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10910868#post10910868 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JennM

That's my point - why give a darn?

I give a darn... my customers know it and my livestock shows it.

Jenn

And I appalud you for it. I just wish more stores were like that.

We have several LFS in the area. Two import their own fish and corals as they are run by the sons of a major aquarium manufacuture and importer. Are their fish and corals any better? I don't know. I've seen both good and bad come from them.

We have one of our club members who recently purchased one of the LFS in our area. I've talked with him some and he's been to several of the wholesalers in L.A. Even he says it hit and miss of when and what they will get in down there. I haven't asked him yet about any garentee but being how I'm very metculs on what I purchase, I haven't had any problems. But then again, I've been doing this for a while.

AS far as knowing Race's bussiness at L.A. I do not, I've just had the privillage of going to a few of the wolesalers in the area with some local Reef clubs.